Engine vibrations at low revs at Puma 1.6 2002

Hi

I am new to this forum. My name is Gerhard and I have a Puma 1.6 from 2002 for over a year now. So far without problems, till now.

Now the engine is vibrating below 2000 rev and especially when leaving. At higher revs the engine feels fine and has power.

The history: For quite some time I ignored the engine management light, it came and went. After haevy misfiring I found that the coil didn't work properly and changed it together with all cables with original ones and the sparkplugs with aftermarket ones. Then the misfiring was gone but I found the symptomes described above. I changed the new aftermarket spark plugs against original Ford ones, no change. I checked compression and found it to be OK. To check if it's coming from the lambda sensors I disconnected both of them, disconnected the battery a while. When starting with the disconnected sensors it was no change.

Then I brought the car to the garage. There they checked again compression, the adjustment of the cranckshafts and the valve play. Then they told me that the injectors were blocked and I should put some cleaning stuff in the next 2 tanks. After no improvement I disasambled the injectors with the fuel rail and was spraying a bit petrol in the air, for me all injectors seem to work the same and fine.

Also I checked the digital display and found nothing strange I think:
dtc ... None
Some values were different from those shown in that link http://www.projectpuma.com/viewtopic.php?p=223#p223" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but I have no clue what the values mean?
L5 (maybe LS) me: - 0 link: - 6
Pd me: Od, link OC
PE1 me 231, link 61
PE6 me 050, link 0

In addition I have a problem with changing the gears. I assume it's the hydraulic system of the clutch and changed already the cylinder at the pedal but no change. So I guess it's the cylinder at the clutch. But before spending some more 100 I want to make sur the engine is OK. I am quite sure the clutch is independent from the engine because the vibrations are also the when I press the clutch and just rev up the engine.

Any other ideas what I could check.

Thank you for your help.
Gerhard

Today I found that removing the connector from the TPS sensor does not change anything. Is this normal can I measure the resistance of the part at the connector?

is the engine throbbing or idling quite high?

ICV problem?
MAF sensor problem?
I would of said injectors aswell but then u say u have sorted that.

Hi

Idle is perfect.

I disconnected the MAF while idle and the engine stopped immediately, not a proof that it works perfectly but it's at least doing something. Would it really cause vibrations or just general low power output?

Injectors: I wouldn't call it sorted out but visually they were doing quite the same job. Also I only drove half a tank so far with the injetor cleaning stuff. It's just no fun to drive with the bad clutch. But wouldn't I notice faulty injectors at higher revs too?

Funnily the enigine management light, which was on the last weeks, went off today.

I also thought the vibrations could origin in a bad mounting of the engine, maybe the torque mount? I try to check this tonight.

Any other suggestions, maybe on the engine mount?

I just got the phone call from the garage. They made another compression test and they found that a valve is bad. So the first garage and myself failed doing a propper test.

The costs for the repair would be 2000 Euros in the garage. Anybody got a good 1.6 cylinder haed? Does the head from a 1.7 fit as well, I mean plug and play. There is one at the local junk yard. But I guess not.

Gerhard said:

I just got the phone call from the garage. They made another compression test and they found that a valve is bad. So the first garage and myself failed doing a propper test.

The costs for the repair would be 2000 Euros in the garage. Anybody got a good 1.6 cylinder haed? Does the head from a 1.7 fit as well, I mean plug and play. There is one at the local junk yard. But I guess not.

Click to expand...

Definately not mate, the 1.7 head is similar shape, but the holes are different, and the 1.7 has the VCT on the inlet cam, that the 1.6 cam will not fit, and the 1.6 management cant manage the VCT cam. Also head bolds are different. I think you could possibly bolt a 1.4 head on, (not 100% sure on that) but you would loose alot of power, as it wont flow aswel as the 1.6.

How are you with mechanics, because it actually isnt that hard to take a head off, and replace it. All you need is new head bolts, a new head gasket, a timing pin and locking tool, and access to a torque wrench! And then varius spanners/sockets! £2000 euros sounds alot, and your going to have to go through the same amount of work anyway to change the head, so even if you cant do it yourself, you will have to pay alot to get the head changed.

buy a new engine... for that money you could get a real low milage one have it checked and all belts done and drop it in for still under a grand if u know the right people

Thanks for your replys.

Gerhard said:

Definately not mate, the 1.7 head is similar shape, but the holes are different, and the 1.7 has the VCT on the inlet cam, that the 1.6 cam will not fit, and the 1.6 management cant manage the VCT cam. Also head bolds are different. I think you could possibly bolt a 1.4 head on, (not 100% sure on that) but you would loose alot of power, as it wont flow aswel as the 1.6

Click to expand...

I checked and the bore diameters are different on all engines, so I don't think that any other than a 1.6 head will fit. So I am lokking for one from a Puma, Fiesta or Focus.

TyeBoi said:

buy a new engine... for that money you could get a real low milage one have it checked and all belts done and drop it in for still under a grand if u know the right people

Click to expand...

That would be an option too, but I would prefer to change the heat only.

I definately won't have the engine fixed in the garage. I am a bit short on time now and my wife would like to have her car back, but I think I can do it. The bill made her a bit more patient . In 2 weeks or so I will start, fixing the clutch and at least remove the head. Maybe I am lucky and it's only a valve. I have no idea how the valve seats are on the 1.6, maybe they can be replaced or machined? In the worst case I will have to look for a new head.
All together it will be maybe cheaper than having even the clutch done in the garage. I already told my wife I can fix it, so wish me luck.

good luck lol

Good luck mate! If you need any tips on anything, just send me a pm, if you need torque settings or anything like that. Also, it may be just a bent valve, so thats may be all you need to change, but it may have hit on 1 of your pistons, so just check to make sure they arent damaged. And make sure you keep all top hats in order once you take cams out, or youll have to pay to get them all re shimmed.

Oh, and when i mentioned the 1.4 head might fit earlier, the cylinder sizes dont really matter as much, as the pistons dont come out any further then the cylinder, its the oil and water galleries lining up that matter (they dont, the 1.4 is colser to the 1.7 head) but if it did, it might actually make quite a fast engine, because id imagine the volume in the combustion chamber would be smaller on the 1.4, so it would increase the compression ratio, so if used with high octane fuel, would probarbly give you an extra 10 - 20% more power! I might try it myself!!

A little update: I started fixing the clutch, as this was the more straight forward problem (at least I thought so). Because the clutch did not release properly, but the clutch was otherwise OK, I decided to change only the slave cylinder. The master cylinder I had already changed before. What can I say, it was a bit of work but went quite well. Unfortunatelly the improvement is marginally. For some minutes it worked fine and I could put it in the reverse gear without noise. Then it went back to almost as bad as before. I desperatly bleeded the clutch several times, but no change. As far as I can see, the hydraulic system is tight.

So now my question: Can it really be, that the clutch itself has failed in a way that could result in such symptoms?

Thank you for your opinions.

why didnt you change the complete clutch tho,while gearbox is out and changing slave cylinder would have saved you more time and money,its more than likely the clutch cover and plate have worn casing juddering...

Does it still do the same thing if you pump the clutch alot, then try and put it into gear?? The only thing i can thing of is if your not loosing any clutch fluid, there might be a kink in the clutch lines?? Make sure you check the hydraulic fliud properly, because when you just look at it from the outside, you only see the outer part of the tank, which is the brake part, the inner part is for the clutch, and that can be empty, but still look full from the outside.

martinthrapston said:

why didnt you change the complete clutch tho,while gearbox is out and changing slave cylinder would have saved you more time and money,its more than likely the clutch cover and plate have worn casing juddering...

Click to expand...

Just wanted to save some money and not change a good part. Afterwards one always knows better.
So it is possible that a worn/faulty clutch can cause the clutch not to release properly?

yes....

A worn clutch wouldnt cause it not to release properly, if anything, it would have the opposite effect, and it would release alot easier!

OK, now I can choose my answer

PumaNoob: The thing with the split tank I am aware of. As far as I can see the fluid level is constant. Also I think that the slave cylinder is moving. When the clutch is first pressed and then I open the bleeding valve, the fluid comes of. That means the cylinder has been moving (at least a bit) and is pushed back by the membrane spring of the clutch.
Can it be that the release membrane spring of the clutch got too week and so can't release any more?

Thanks for your replys so far.

I was going to say, if fluid came out when you bled it, then theres obviusly something in there. I could be wrong on this, but im sure the spring is what pushes the clutch plate onto the flywheel, and when you press the clutch, it dis engages the clutch and flywheel, allowing you to change gear. If the spring was weakend, id have thought that your clutch would be slipping!! Im no expert in gearboxes, so someone would have to verify that. If your cars not going into gear, but goes into every gear when the engine is off, then theres got to be a problem with the clutch system somewhere, as its not disengaging the clutch plate from the flywheel. Have you checked that it goes into every gear without the engine on??

PumaNoob said:

I was going to say, if fluid came out when you bled it, then theres obviusly something in there. I could be wrong on this, but im sure the spring is what pushes the clutch plate onto the flywheel, and when you press the clutch, it dis engages the clutch and flywheel, allowing you to change gear.

Click to expand...

I think you are right on that.

PumaNoob said:

If the spring was weakend, id have thought that your clutch would be slipping!!

Click to expand...

I thought the same and that's why I suspected the hydraulic system. But maybe the clutch is that worn, that the spring moved a bit away from the cylinder and the travel of the slave cylinder in not sufficient any more?

PumaNoob said:

If your cars not going into gear, but goes into every gear when the engine is off, then theres got to be a problem with the clutch system somewhere, as its not disengaging the clutch plate from the flywheel. Have you checked that it goes into every gear without the engine on??

Click to expand...

Even with the engine running I can put it into all gears. The forward ones are a bit harder, the rear one is noisy. With the transmission in neutral and the engine running, there is normally this silent noise from the transmission, which normally disappears when you press the clutch. Now the noise continues wehn I press the clutch, so the clutch does not disengage. For whatever reason?

I will watch the hydraulic system a bit longer and change the clutch in some time. Any opinions are very welcome.