FRP Duratec Turbo Project!

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PumaNoob said:
Yeah that's fair enough mate, I'm always happy to get different opinions. So do you think that if you put alcons on a bigger disc, then it would have better stopping power??


if they were a bigger width alcon then yeah in my opinion, the alcon pads/calipers cover the full disc where as some big brake conversions ive seen lately the caliper is mounted with a massive disc but the pads only cover 3/4 of the disc face itself meaning that its only doing the same as the smaller disc surely??

will you have to have custom driveshafts etc made??
 
Yes, custom shafts, I've spoken to a machinist who specialises in drag car shafts, he said if I take my shafts in, he can do them for between £300 & £400.

I think the thing with bigger diameter discs is not so much to do with surface area, but the fact that even if it's the same surface area of contact between pad and disc, and the same pressure applied the disk, the bigger diameter disk will have better stopping power, because there is less torque the further away from the centre you get. Its the same principal as acceleration suffers with bigger diameter wheels. So my statement earlier was not to say the caliper is better or worse then the alcon, but the fact that the bigger disc should give me better stopping power, as would the alcon on a bigger disc in my opinion!

Does anybody know anything about gun drilled driveshafts, as the guy at the machinist shop told me about them, but I can't get my head around the principal of drilling a hole through the middle of a shaft can actually make it stronger??
 
This should be an interesting project if your Puma Turbo one is anything to go by ;)

Ok your not restoring it to original but I think what your doing is way better than letting it rot and be stripped bare for serviceable parts, with most of them probably going into anything but another FRP. You have my vote as No.45 will still be tangeable as No.45 FRP and not a washing machine case or cola can even if it isn't 100% original :thumbs:
 
Dal said:
Because Ford didn't fit / spec them, Tickford did unlike the FRS.
exactly. FRP's were a one off special where as FRS's are mass produced. the designers went for the best where the bean counters didnt stop them. No way would they have got away with a motorsport caliper otherwise.
PumaNoob said:
yeah, that's pretty much my opinion too!! The thing is, i got a set of brembos for £170, a full seal and screw rebuild kit for £40, and mintex pads and EBC grooved and dimpled discs for £85! That's more then £100 less then the discs alone for the alcons! Yes I did get a good price for these, as I know people in the trade, but I also dontlike the fact that FRP owners are forced to pay a ludacris price for discs that production and material wise, are not much different to the Focus rs discs. If I do this conversion, my brake disc suppliers then become competitive again!! Like I said, it's 1 more thing that's going to be future proof on my car!
FRP owners arent forced to pay silly prices. You just dont buy alcon discs. All the parts that wear are being remade cheaply anyway.

bigal82 said:
oh no doubt they will be well upto the job but i was just putting my money on them not being better than a fresh set of alcons :wink:
I agree. As said, ive had several different 4 pot set ups and 6 pots on another car and none of them stops like good nick alcons. Even the expensive AP 4 pots and massive discs i have on the cossie are not a match to alcons.
PumaNoob said:
Yeah that's fair enough mate, I'm always happy to get different opinions. So do you think that if you put alcons on a bigger disc, then it would have better stopping power??
besides from the obvious problem of pad size and disc area etc then yes intheory you would get a greater peak breaking force. But in reality youd lock the wheels up on road tyres before you could use the extra force.
 
I'm watching this project with great interest as this engine was my idea for a replacement if the 1.7 ever became too much hassle to repair / replace.

As for the brakes... my brothers FRP had FRS disks with the Alcon callipers and that was just a shocking set up.

I like that you're doing to your FRP what I've thought of as a good diea... so at least I can see how well it works and how easy you find putting the engine in :thumbs:
 
When you say it was a shocking set up, do you mean it didn't work?? I really can't see how it's possible for the alcons to be better, the physical size is the same, so the same heat dispersal should apply to both brakes. The FRS disks are wider with a bigger gap in the middle, so through the discs, heat dispersal should be greater through the FRS set up.

What warren said about wheels locking up is a valid point, so if the brembos have the capacity to lock the wheels up, then they obviusly have more then enough braking capacity, to it would make sence that the difference would be in the the performance when brakes are hotter, ie braking from high speed, and track driving. These conditions are where wider gapped discs should have the advantage, as other then pad material & disc setup, cooling capacity is the main factor in performance of a brake setup.

I wasn't aware you could get an alternative brake set up for the frp calipers?? The only ones I've seen are £400 plus. & then there was a suggestion (I think by flash) about getting alloy bells making up with a changable rotor. But as far as I was aware, the FRP discs just weren't available!
 
nah youve misinterpreted what i meant by being capable of locking the brakes up. even standard 240mm will do that. the point is for the wieght of the car there is only so much braking force you can apply before you have brakes bigger than necessary for the power and wieght of the car. Alcons are much closer to that limit than brembos yet retain the ability to be progressive both on road and track day.

if you went nuts, stuck on some 19" wheels and massive 380mm discs with 10 pot brakes then your car would be overbraked, youd lock up all the time and loose all the progressive braking you want on road and track days. However they might be good for bringing you down from 200mph to 0 .........

Hispec can do a bell and rotor set up to replace FRP discs at a sensible price. Think Jacko has them.

with respect to comparing frp and frs discs, they are not a direct comparison. one is a road spec OEM disk the other is a motorsport spec disc. and its not the size and width thats critical here but materials, manufacture methods etc. Just as EBC disks are fast road but not motorsport spec. just compare prices of cheapo EBC stuff (which IMO is not that hightly rated) compared to a similar sized motorsport rotor from AP or alcon or similar.
 
Well EBC discs & mintex pads seem to be quite popular amongst brembo enthusiasts, so for what they are, & what it's worth, I'll try them. The discussion earlier was about the calipers, weather one would out perform the other, and I still believe that if both had the same pads & discs, there would be nothing in it. There are alternative "motorsport" discs available for the FRS, so if I want to go that route later on, it's still an option. & I'd still maintain that the design of the brakes with a bigger gap in the middle will have a better cooling capacity, & if the discs are like for like, the bigger disc has better stopping power. Ok yes, if you go too big, and your pedal travel is not far enough, then except for high speed braking, your going to have problems controling the braking. 25mm on the grand scheme of things really isn't going to throw balances out too much, especially on an inferior "cheapo disc"!!

Yes, you can overbrake a car, but the difference between FRP brakes &. FRS brakes I think isn't worth a mention, let alone 2 pages worth!!

The 1 thing I thought somebody would have picked up on however is the weight issue. The FRS discs are heavier then the FRP discs, & multiplied by the 2 wheels, this will have an effect on acceleration, how much i don't know, but it's all extra load on the drive shafts, clutch, & gearbox. It's just something I'll have to try & revert back to alcons if it dosent work.

Ok, I must have got confused with who had the discs, I thought it was flash, not jacko, but I know Id read it somewhere.
 
hello. i had hispec make up frp discs as an ali bell and standard 295mm rotor...saves a kilo per disc! more importantly the rotors cost from £65 each, not £220 for alcons! (the bells are £100 each but are an investment buy as only everbuy them once)

frs brembo discs are only £20ish cheaper than alcons, ebc etc wont last as long but same with alcon vs hispec with mine and they last long enough to not notice a difference.

alcon calipers are pretty awesome for their size and if you hve a read of my guide itl show you they can be looked after for pennies and very easily. iv managed to even source or have made all the 'rip-off' parts at a decent price.

for the future im looking to get hispec to make a 325mm kit for them (330mm is absolute physical max in the caliper, width isnt a problem as spacers can be made)....

be carefull with the brembo calipers.....there only a little bit less temprimental than the alcons when it comes to maintenance...
 
jacko said:
hello. i had hispec make up frp discs as an ali bell and standard 295mm rotor...saves a kilo per disc! more importantly the rotors cost from £65 each, not £220 for alcons! (the bells are £100 each but are an investment buy as only everbuy them once)

frs brembo discs are only £20ish cheaper than alcons, ebc etc wont last as long but same with alcon vs hispec with mine and they last long enough to not notice a difference.

alcon calipers are pretty awesome for their size and if you hve a read of my guide itl show you they can be looked after for pennies and very easily. iv managed to even source or have made all the 'rip-off' parts at a decent price.

for the future im looking to get hispec to make a 325mm kit for them (330mm is absolute physical max in the caliper, width isnt a problem as spacers can be made)....

be carefull with the brembo calipers.....there only a little bit less temprimental than the alcons when it comes to maintenance...

Now this is Something id be interested in, not only for the cost saving, but the weight is a big thing to me. The other thing i HAVE to applaud, is the fact that

A. Even though you are selling these items, , your not hard selling and slating the Brembos!!

B. Most importantly, you have seen that certain places are cornering the market with FRP stuff, and have taken your own time and no doubt cash to come up with a solution, instead of just complaining about it. I myself decided to try and come up with a solution by just changine the set up, but this is a different level, & for that, id buy these off you simply for the fact that if you have gone out of your way to do this, and i know from experience the time and effort you have to put into these things. So, i would buy them off you just to support YOU, and what your doing.

Rather then discuss here the options, ill PM you and well chat if thats ok with you!
 
I don't think Jacko actually sells them; he got Hi-Spec to make them and now you can buy them directly from Hi-Spec :thumbs: everyone wins.

Can't find a link though so you'd probably need to call them.

I'll be going this route next time I need discs!
 
definately sounds like a winner, lighter, and essentially cheaper to change once you already have bells. Not a part you can go to ford or halfords to get, but then if you brought an FRP, then you know that most parts will be like that, exclusivety comes at a premium!

Well, while all that is being sorted and taken into consideration, i dont know if its a good idea now to post up pics of what ive been up to??? Anybody against the brembos, look away now!! :lol:

Rough looking Brembos!!

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Pads fitted.

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New seals

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FRP discs next to FRS

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Maybe a little over kill on the pics, but i didnt put enough pics in my last build, so im going to make sure i do in this build!
 
cool. pm'd you back. all the info is in my how to guide...frp alcon rebuild

yep, i hate it whe people just whinge and pay silly prices! but then there are certain frp owners who will still whinge when you present them with an alternative just as good, sometimes even better for less than half of the price!!! makes me laugh!!!

i will add a link or phone number into my guide but just google hi-spec brakes and talk to roy
(i say this to everyone...just be really polite and friendly...theyv done the frp world SOOO many favours!!!)

like pads for £60 odd where alcons are twice that, pistons for a tenner where alcons are 4x that.....!
 
great job you done on them mate, they look good in white :grin:

do they fit the hub or have you got too make spacers/bracket. ??

the discs look nice too.
 
jacko said:
cool. pm'd you back. all the info is in my how to guide...frp alcon rebuild

yep, i hate it whe people just whinge and pay silly prices! but then there are certain frp owners who will still whinge when you present them with an alternative just as good, sometimes even better for less than half of the price!!! makes me laugh!!!

i will add a link or phone number into my guide but just google hi-spec brakes and talk to roy
(i say this to everyone...just be really polite and friendly...theyv done the frp world SOOO many favours!!!)

like pads for £60 odd where alcons are twice that, pistons for a tenner where alcons are 4x that.....!

Cheers mate ill get on it in the morning!

bigal82 said:
great job you done on them mate, they look good in white

do they fit the hub or have you got too make spacers/bracket. ??

the discs look nice too

Thanks, i thought white would look nice, but its probarbly a daft idea as keeping them clean will be a nightmare!! :lol:
If you look on this picture, on the right of the picture, those are brackets to fit them to the hubs, as the offset and spacings ect are totaly different. Theyve just come out the oven at this point!!


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I might not be using them now Jacko has offered a more suitable solution, ill see how things go!
 
sell them on if you dont use them. youll get your money back now they are in good condition.

I notice you replaced the dust seals, did you have the pistons out, clean them up and replace the internal fluid seals too?? Would be a shame not to do the full job while your at it.

If you keep them then several layers of rim wax or similar wheel products on the painted surface will keep the brake dust at bay then whenever you have your wheels off in future to clean the insides/wax them you can finish off doing the calipers too.
 
They look v nice in white!

Nice job there :eek:k:

I'm all for do what you want its your car mate lol :lol: enjoying the progress atm :D
 
zara#014 said:
They look v nice in white!

Nice job there :eek:k:

I'm all for do what you want its your car mate lol :lol: enjoying the progress atm :D

Thanks alot for the encouragement, its much appreciated!!

Car went off to the body shop today, the guy said the front arches are ok, but the backs are going to need some cutting/welding to get them looking pristine. Hes quoted me £600. To me that sounds quite expensive, as i know places that can do a full respray for that much, but i want this to be perfect, and i cant vouch for the workmanship of the cheaper places, but this place has a really good reputation.

Its called dragonart in Birmingham, and compared to some places, they are cheap, but im kind of putting the price thing to one side on this, as i want the best quality job at the best place. The work ive seen these guys do is something else, so they are the only company that i know that i would trust to leave my car with!

warrenpenalver said:
If you keep them then several layers of rim wax or similar wheel products on the painted surface will keep the brake dust at bay then whenever you have your wheels off in future to clean the insides/wax them you can finish off doing the calipers too.

Thanks for the advice, never even heard of rim wax!! :oops:
 
ive got some rim wax errol.. gawd get up to speed. lol

ALSO answer ur phone messages you ignorant git :p jokes.

and where in Notts did u get this FRP?

cant wait to hear the results of this build though mate. I have decided if all goes well i will put a 13b rotary in my mx5 in the future. im half way towards my spray job so its gonna be a stunner once im done :)
 
TyeBoi said:
ive got some rim wax errol.. gawd get up to speed. lol

ALSO answer ur phone messages you ignorant git :p jokes.

and where in Notts did u get this FRP?

cant wait to hear the results of this build though mate. I have decided if all goes well i will put a 13b rotary in my mx5 in the future. im half way towards my spray job so its gonna be a stunner once im done :)

Lol, i wondered when you would show your face!!! Rotary engine??? Thats a big boy engine, ill speak to you more about that when i see you!

Any chance i could come on Sat for them bits?
 

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