FRP Duratec Turbo Project!

[PumaNoob]

If I was to have anti-lag, I would definitely have it mild, with my car being front wheel drive, the aggressive anti lag would slingshot me straight out of a corner, into a ditch or a bush lol.

And your not wrong with the ECU's, It's not that Megasquirt is a bad ECU, in my opinion if set up properly it's as good as if not better then other entry level ECU's, Emerald or Omex ect due to accessability and user friendly interfaces, but if we compared it to even the puma ECU, the processing rate and amount of calculations it is capable of, they are just in a deferent leauge. But saying that, I'd be lost trying to map anything as complex. Having to programme so many calculations and enrichments, it would be too much. At the moment, I have general ignition timing and fuel pulse timing. Then I have warm up enrichments, and warm up ignition advance. Then once it's warmed up, I have inlet temp correction to retard timing when inlet temps get too hot and adjust fuelling. I have coolant temp corrections that do the same. I have knock sensor correction, that will retard timing until any knock stops, then advance in incraments, I have manifold pressure and TPS acceleration enrichments, to overcome that lean spot when you hit the accelerator pedal quick, it throws in a little extra fuel (the amount is calculated on the rate at which the pedal is pressed), I have over boost correction, and lambda AFR tracking with target AFR tables. No doubt there will be things I've missed too, but that's a whole lot to get your head around, if it was any more complex then that, I just wouldn't know where to start!

 

[warrenpenalver]

That is the big difference.

ford probably had a complete team to refine the cold start map alone, let alone anything else.

The other big difference is the fault and self learning capability. Most production ecu's use self learning to get around variations in production tolerances, wear and tear on componants before failure over the cars life span etc. That is part of why often mild mods like a filter, dont screw things up as its within the tolerances of the ecu's adaptability. The fault finding and fault running systems often have a complete map in a sense with each sensor having default tables in case of sensor failure.

You and i would struggle to do that kind of 3d mapping let alone the complete seperate fault strategies etc necessary.


Hence why if someone has the technology to hack into the OEM map/ecu you are often better off because you just leave alone the cold start and fault strategies as far as possible and just play with the main fuel maps to to suit your engine tune. That way it can still drive sensibly and reliably when you arent "on it" which for most of us is most the time. Sure none of that matters on a pure race car.

Another aspect of that is if you go aftermarket, find the most experienced tuner you can for that ECU and engine combo as its likely he will have had the time and experience over the years to produce a decent cold start strategy etc which can be refined to suit. Anyone with a day on a dyno can do the basics for full power.

 

[RyanG]

only proper aggressive "positive boost" anti-lag is damaging.

Mild antilag wont do any harm as long as you switch it off once things get very hot.

All depends what you want, loud noise for fun and some mild anti-lag effect on gear change/downshift etc then the mild antilag on a normal turbo is fine within limits.

You want psycho anti-lag meaning you stay permenantly in 1bar positive boost regardless of how long the gearchange or how long the downshift and tight corner is then you need proper antilag.

The difference between the two is massive. full on antilag will literally pull the car out the corner with no effort from yourselfs and f youre on the gas then booooom your fired out the corner like a slingshot. The psycho anti-lag that i had when i first got the car was aggresive enough that switch it on and downchange and just touch the throttle and it was driving along running away with itself to about 4k rpm in its own just on the anti-lag. (you need a light pedal action or most anti-lag strategies cut out after a few seconds on "idle" )


Fun as it is, you dont NEED anti-lag on any road/occasional track car. Even most track cars dont need it on most UK circuits. But it is amusing scaring old people or putting it on just before a tight corner or roundabout and slingshotting out the corner sideways with a "OMFG" grin on your face.

A well deisgned fast road/track set up should have the right balance of turbo size etc so that it naturally spools up quickly but still has reasonable beans to make good top end. Anti-lag was a necessary evil to improve the performance of cars heavily limited by regulations and power limits/turbo restrictors.

Thats not entirely true. Mild antilag is just as damaging to a gt series turbo as once the turbo is exceeding 800degrees the plastic besring cages wont live with it. If erroll had it converted to steel ball bearing then around 900 degrees it will fall apart.

Also one bar positive boost is impossible. One bar absolute is normal for a wrc als system. If it made one or two psi of positive boost its done very well let alone a bar! Lol

"Psycho" als shouldnt drive the car along off throttle, a trailing throttle als system will drive the car under very light throttle loads but it shouldnt be driving the car, especitally upto 4k rpm lol

My bros als system is individual port with a 1inch bypass valve and each pipe -8! His under very light throttle will drive the car hard but never driving the car up the road.

 

[warrenpenalver]

hence why i said until things get hot!

one bar positive as in zero on the guage as an engine will normally pull about 12-14psi vac so you need to create 1 bar of boost to get to zero on the guage. I agree 2 bar (1 bar indicated) would be silly.

mine used to do just that to 4k until i had the car remapped and als taken off. no throttle at about 10mph in 1st it would keep pulling it steady down the road for about 5 secs before the ALS shut down. Rev it hard between gears to get the ALS going and stick it in second about 20mph with very light throttle and it would carry on down the road no problem pulling until 4k rpm when it cuts out and the revs dropped back down to the level demanded of the throttle. And it wasnt the antilag pulling hard, it was more pop pop pop with each bang surging it forward in a fairly rough fashion. amusing out of slow roundabouts although more fun to put your foot down than let it just pull itself along.

 

[PumaNoob]

I already have flat shift wired into my launch control button on the gear stick that automatically retards timing & limits revs, and stops the engine from bogging down on a shift. But there is no popping and banging as it doesn't cut ignition, only retards. It's nowhere near as aggressive as anti lag. And my launch control is like the one fitted to Focus ST225 as satandard, it retards ignition rather then cutting it, it don't make the popping and banging.

I've always been of the understanding that positive pressure is pressure above atmospheric (or around 102kpa depending on altitude), & anything under that is negative pressure. If were talking absolute pressure then it's just pressure.

Anyhow, I don't want to put any part of my car or engine under unnecessary stress if possible, and my car was built as quiet as I can as not to draw unwanted attention. So my anti lag is 300cc of extra capacity!!

 

[moondustka]

Nice work Errol! Fantastic setup you're putting together. This will certainly put my efforts to shame! As said, will be good to get the cars together at some point this year! :grin:

 

[PumaNoob]

Don't be daft mate, when I saw your car at ford fair a few years ago, I had nothing but envy, your engine bay looked so neat and organised, mine looked more like I'd go an engine and a load of silicone and bundled it all in there! :lol: there isn't a car on here that could put yours to shame, build wise or or performance wise! Might look that way to you because your familiar with your engine now, but to everyone else, just your gearbox mount is a work of art on it's own lol! It will be good when we get our cars on 1/4 mile, I have a bunch of excuses ready incase you beat my time! We'll be a right pair of nerds, comparing how we both got around different obstacles.

 

[BigAl]

I particularly like the shiny silver thing you have sitting on your kitchen table mate! lol

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

You may notice the servo is a little bigger then standard. I decided to try a bigger one, as i feel the puma brakes arent as responsive as more modern cars. The actual braking is as good or better then modern cars, but it takes more effort! So im hoping with the bigger servo, i should get more braking assistance, and so should modernise the braking system a little.

What servo are you using? A mondeo Mk3 one or something completely different? Master cylinder just fits on? Vacuum hose also? Or there are some modifications?
I am inclined to try the same route. Since I upgraded brakes to ST150 setup all around (280 mm discs fron, 253 mm discs at back) and put on braided hoses the pedal is really stiff. The car stops like there is no tomorrow, but in everyday's traffic I'd like some more assistance. Getting old, I guess

 

[PumaNoob]

Yes mate, it's a Mondeo MK3 servo, puma vac hose fits straight in, but both brake pipes are on the right hand side, so depending on what existing master cylinder you have, you will need to either modify your existing pipes or make/but new ones. The puma master cylinder fits on in the same position, but won't work as the depth of the mondeo servo is deeper, so I used a mondeo master cylinder too. I think people hav used mk2 mondeo parts too, I just used mk3 because that was the best condition one I could find.

The advantage to the mk3 slave is that the later puma hydraulic reservoir bolts on with a little fettling. I'll post up some pics when I get a chance.

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

There is enough space under the bonnet? How big is mondeo brake servo, anyway in terms of cm?

Can't wait to read some feedback how it worked out and what is the feeling on brake pedal!

 

[PumaNoob]

There is enough space, it's literally touching the fuse box but it fits just fine, if it were any bigger you would have to modify the fuse box casing. I can't remember the actual diameter of it but I will check later. It fits with the 2.3 engine so should easily fit with the 1.7. I won't know what the pedal feel is like until I've got it all up and running. It's all experimental on my part, it may be a complete disaster lol, and lock all the wheels up with the slightest touch, it may feel no different. All I can do is estimate what the effects will be from the size & volume increase. At a coomplete guess, I'd say the mondeo servo volume is near 20% more then the puma servo. The master cylinder is slightly longer then the puma item, but external diameter is exactly the same, so I'm assuming the piston sizes are the same, but again, a few extra mm in piston diameter will make all the difference. So I'll try it out and report back!

Another issue may be that in UK, we have the brake bar at the back of the engine bay because the servo is on the passenger side for us, so there will be some loss there, your brake pedal in Europe is detect lay connected to the servo so I think your brakes will probably be more responsive anyway. It may be the case that my focus feels more responsive because the servo is on the same side as the brake pedal.

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

No, I was thinking the same thing. You guys have crossbar for the brake pedal since you are on the wrong side of a car (LOL). But, on more serious note: your brake setup is now closer to mondeo's (even surpassing it in terms of disc diameter at front) so it makes sense to put on mondeo brake servo and master cylinder.
Or, in my case: I have bigger calipers at front and way bigger pistons at the back (disks instead of drums). All that has to be pushed, the contact area is larger and to compensate you'd need higher pressure in the system, hence the pedal has to be pushed harder or has to be assisted more. Fair enough, on a race track you'd want all the unnecessary assitance away, 'cos it kills the feeling, but in everydays traffic that softness is beneficial.
Now, come to that, is there any difference between brake servos on regular puma and FRP exactly for the same reason? Or, to refrase it: is the brake pedal on FRP stiffer than on regular puma?

 

[PumaNoob]

That's where I think the issue lies, the FRP has 4 pistons per caliper, so 8 pistons on the front compared to 2 for a standard puma, yet the servo and master cylinder are the same part on both cars. There is nothing wrong with the brakes, for the year the cars were developed, they are fine, it's just that compared to modern cars they feel a little less sharp. It's just a niggle I've found that I now have the opportunity to try and rectify.

The reason I thought the Mondeo servo would work well, other then being a direct bolt on, is that the mondeo weighs a fair bit more then the puma, and car weight is also a big part of brake assistance. The heavier cars need more braking assistance to keep the pedal feel the same as a smaller car. So we will see, hopefully it's a cheap upgrade for everyone!

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

And then you're off to hybrids, right? :-D

I mean, building one

 

[Blue3]

And then you're off to hybrids, right? :-D

I mean, building one

Defo, dual fuel petrol and avgas. !!!

 

[PumaNoob]

If dual fuel means an LPG engine in the front and a petrol engine in the back, then sure, I'll be happy to give it a go!! :lol:

 

[Sparx]

Oh my gosh Erroll that looks amazing!! Can't wait to see it when its ready!

 

[PumaNoob]

Thanks Amanda, it's very close now!

I'm a little annoyed, I think I must have left my custom made radiator support brackets on the drive, & gypo's have stolen it! So I had to go and buy another one and I need to chop and weld it to make it fit now, so another little set back, but not a biggie!

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

Who stole it? Gypo equalls a Gypsie? They exist in UK as well? And 'collect' all the metal they could? :?:
They do the same thing here. They have even been known for taking even the gutter (especially if made from copper) from the houses if their owners would go on a longish vacation: the 'team' would come and take it down within an hour or so….

In Zagreb we have a lake which is (well, was at the time) on western outskirts of city. The Jarun lake is used for rowing (2,5 km in length) plus in summertime as our local riviera (people swim and sunbath there).
Anyway, when it was on outskirts it was little detached and you couldn't reach it by public transportation as the last tram stop was about 1 km away. So people mostly used their bikes to get there. And that is how triathlon was 'invented by our Gypos'. They would come in walking, took a bath (in the lake) and wash themselves, then took someone's bike (not to use a 's' word) and went on… :roll:
That story is from 1987. when university games where in Zagreb...