FRP or standard puma toe settings.

[PumaNoob]

Hi all, been tweaking my puma, & having a few issues. When driving at high speed, I'm having to do loads of little steering corrections to keep it straight. It doesn't feel too stable, and on hard acceleration, I'm really struggling for grip. I've used poly bushes in the wishbones so there should be a little less movement in wishbones, & just to get it set up, I've set the front wheels perfectly parallel when stationary.

Now the question is, does anyone know the standard toe settings for a FRP, or a standard puma? I know I'll need to set it to toe out a little, and with increased power, on hard acceleration it's going to change a little, but I'm hoping the poly bushes will counteract that movement a little.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[ElDude at Allison Automotive]

A small amount of toe IN increases straight line stability at high speed..hence the FRP set to toe in 1mm each side.. (usually seen as 0'08 deg/minutes on alignment equipment)..

Setting the toe outwards makes the steering horribly light and will eat tyres :lol:

 

[PumaNoob]

A small amount of toe IN increases straight line stability at high speed..hence the FRP set to toe in 1mm each side.. (usually seen as 0'08 deg/minutes on alignment equipment)..

Setting the toe outwards makes the steering horribly light and will eat tyres :lol:

Thats perfect mate, thanks for the info. Mine are set dead straight at the moment, ill change the settings and report back!!

I was lead to believe they need to toe out a little, so on acceleration they straighten up. The symptoms you describe are exactly what im getting (not noticed tyre wear yet), but in the dry, the steering is very light, and in the wet, its multiplied 10 fold, its like i have no traction!

 

[ElDude at Allison Automotive]

if it's set dead straight it should drive fine and feel good for standard 70mph motorway driving... my fiesta is set without any toe and it's steady as a rock on the motorway... (wheels have been balanced at 'Vibration free' tho)

Maybe some other issues to do with geometry?? still might be worth getting it on a hunter alignment system just to check tho..

Chris

 

[PumaNoob]

The problem is accelerating, and juddering under hard breaking from high speed. Cruising isn't an issue. If its straight or toeing out a little, then when I brake hard from high speed, it's going to toe out more so I'm thinking that might cause the vibration. I'm also swapping my flo-flex bushes to powerflex to see if that makes a difference. There doesn't seem to be any movement in them, but I can't put the load on it that hard braking and accelerating would.

 

[PumaNoob]

Just a quick thanks Chris, changed the toe settings as advised, & car handles ALOT better on acceleration now, not so skittish. I've not tried in the wet yet, but I'm pleased with the results!

 

[ScubaSteve]

iirc you took your subfarme off and didnt use anythiing to line it back up??

 

[PumaNoob]

I lined the holes up centre, but ive since moved the subframe forward a few mm to its max because my engine is pulling a lot of torque now, and the torque link is mounted to the subframe, so i dont want any movement when the engine pulls on it. The only other way for me to do it would be to make up collets for around the bolts so it didnt move. Still might go that route, but with the toe set in a little, it drives normal, although im still getting vibration when braking from high speed, so its food for thought.

 

[ScubaSteve]

just wonder if its anything to do with that

 

[PumaNoob]

Yeah, could well be, the thought never even crossed my mind until you said. i think the only option is to make up some collets and see if it improves anything. How on earth you remembered that i dont know, but glad you did. Ill owe you a drink if your right.

 

[Ginger Tom]

Just a quick thought, is the vibration coming through the steering wheel when you brake? Are you sure you haven't warped your disc's?

 

[PumaNoob]

just wonder if its anything to do with that

Looks like i might owe you that drink, been out to check the distance between the front and back wheel on either side, and the passenger side is 12mm longer then the drivers side. It all make sence now, on full lock i was pulling the arch liner out of the passenger side, but not the drivers side. measured the distance from the arch to the tyre, and thats 12mm different aswell.

Moved the sub frame so both sides are the same, and noticed the 2 outer holes on the frame line up with the holes in the chassis! I was under the impression that the actual bolt holes needed to line up, not those 2 outer holes!!! Suddenly it all falls into place. Steve, hats off to you mate, youve come up trumps on this one!

Just a quick thought, is the vibration coming through the steering wheel when you brake? Are you sure you haven't warped your disc's?

Yes, vibration is coming through the wheel, and discs were my 1st thought, but i think Steve is on the money this time. If it persists ill be investing in new discs!

 

[ScubaSteve]

:thumbs: awesome those two holes are for the alignment pins

 

[ScubaSteve]

instead of that drink you can help me fit a supercharger one day haha or failing that sort me some mounts out for a 2.0 duratec

 

[PumaNoob]

I was hoping a hug might suffice!! Yeah, anytime you want to do the charger or duratec (or both :evil: ), ill be there!!

 

[PumaNoob]

Another quick update, dont wish to drag it out, but Chris, Steve, & Ginger Tom were all right. Toe settings were wrong, front subframe wasn't aligned, and one/both front discs are warped!! :evil:

Sorted the alignment out, and handling is greatly improved, but the dreaded alcon vibration is back.

Been advised to give you a ring Chris, so might do that tomorrow if thats ok, looks like its time for Hi Spec rotors and bells. Failing that, its going to be brembos and focus RS discs.

 

[paulob1]

My frp moved its chassis last week by over 15mm, it was visibly notceable...all fixed now. I have the hi-spec rotors on my turbo and they are warped, and from what I have heard they will keep being warped if you drive it hard...dont think you can beat the alcon rotors, expensive they maybe but they work so well...mine is going for a full tracking check this monring after the sub frame moved...

dont know about the locating pins but will get boys to have a look to see if we have any fitted, the fact that mine moved makes me think it doesnt have them..should these pins be permanently fitted and are they designed to stop the assembly from moving...are they screw in or push in pins...

 

[PumaNoob]

The locating pins are just for fitting, once the subframe is bolted up, they are removed. Mine was visible too, you could see that 1 wheel was closer to the arch then the other.

Surely it cant be braking from hard driving that warps the rotors, i have escort cosworth brakes on my green puma, been on there for years, and ive done some ridiculous speeds in that and driven it hard, and not had any issues whatsoever with those! The alcons surely are better then those. But im on my second set of alcon discs now, the first were warped when i got the car, and now these are gone after only about 500miles of driving. Im not willing to shell out £400 a shot for alcons, id rather take my chances with hispec, your the only person ive ever heard with anything negative to say about HiSpec, and at £60 a rotor, i wont mind so much having to pay that out if they warp, rather then £200 a disc. I think im going to drop a set of ST170 discs on mine just to check that there isnt a problem with the actual hub rather then the disc. If it brakes fine with those in, without vibration ect, then im going for HiSpec.

 

[Zara]

think I may take my tracking nd alignment printout to Chris in a few weeks as Ive got the same damn issue with the juddering... :|
absolute pain in the arse, fully expecting to shell out for a new set of discs aswell.. hmmph! oh well :roll:

 

[PumaNoob]

How long have you had your discs fitted Zara?