diagnosing a judder - NOT wheel balance/tracking

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expatscot

Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Messages
658
Location
Ox'shire (North)
I couldn't give a full indication of the symptoms in the limited subject line, so will attempt a more thorough explanation here....

As mentioned elsewhere (in the "what made your day" thread) I recently need to purchase 2 new front tyres - in addition to the worn tread, I had been experiencing increased vibration. I reasoned fresh rubber, balancing and wheel alignment/tracking would go some way to fix that problem.

I was right and the car is, very smooth and tight - gives little indication of its age and fairly high mileage (120,000). BUT {there is always a but} it hasn't totally eliminated any issues I was experiencing.

There is a 'speed band' - roughly 53 to 65mph, with its peak at 60mph - in which there is a pronounced judder/shake/vibration.... It is fine below that band, and fine above that band.
This is only noticeable when accelerating, if just coasting within that speed band, then there is no more than the normal road vibration.

I thought that was it... but noticed last night that at higher speeds (maybe even in breach of speed limits - shock horror).. there is a sensation akin to driving over those raised bumps at the carriageways edge if there is any additional stress on the wheels (such as from adverse camber, a high speed bend).

My thoughts were initially that one of the balance weights had popped off the inside of the alloy, so I had them rebalanced - problem remains.

My next thought would be that a wheel bearing has rapidly deteriorated..?? But I was not aware of the usual low-pitched, drone, humming noise that accompanies a wheel bearing wearing out.

The two problems could be related (they do seem somewhat similar), or may be totally different.

I do still have to replace the bushes on lower arms, and the anti-roll bar drop links... but the car was recently MOT'd and they were noted on the advisory as 'worn, but not with excessive play' - so don't think it should be them? And why is it one 'added judder/vibration' only surface whilst accelerating?

Any thoughts, suggestions, answers on a postcard...

Or alternatively you could just comment in the forum!
 
If it's only doing it on acceleration rather than a constant speed then I doubt if it's wheel related as it's more load dependant.

My guess would be that one of your CV joint spider bearings or housings is worn. I had that a few years ago and would shake the car on acceleration at any speed, yet was fine when cruising. But then if it were your CV joint wearing, you should be able to feel it at any speed when you accelerated. Unless it's only at a certain wheel / driveshaft / CV joint velocity that it becomes apparent.
 
Dal said:
If it's only doing it on acceleration rather than a constant speed then I doubt if it's wheel related as it's more load dependant.

My guess would be that one of your CV joint spider bearings or housings is worn. I had that a few years ago and would shake the car on acceleration at any speed, yet was fine when cruising. But then if it were your CV joint wearing, you should be able to feel it at any speed when you accelerated. Unless it's only at a certain wheel / driveshaft / CV joint velocity that it becomes apparent.

Although slightly different issues, both of mine do seem to be dependent (to some extent) on speed.

The judder is definitely only between 53-65mph.... and only noticeable when accelerating.

And then the other, stress vibration (like driving over those bump strips) is only noticeable at high speeds (whether accelerating or not) when there is also additional stress on the wheels, such as from camber or something similar.

All these wheel, bearing, suspension component problems are all so damn difficult to diagnose.

:'(
 
My first thought was the bushes as you mentioned- mine did something simalr, along with being worse in a corner- turned out to be the combined, bushes, ball joints, track rod ends and duff front susupension.


I've swapped all of the above over and it now is fine (if a little harsh due to the poly bush and coilovers) but its fine.
 
Scotty1.7 said:
My first thought was the bushes as you mentioned- mine did something simalr, along with being worse in a corner- turned out to be the combined, bushes, ball joints, track rod ends and duff front susupension.


I've swapped all of the above over and it now is fine (if a little harsh due to the poly bush and coilovers) but its fine.

Yeah, it could be a combination of a few things.... the bottom line may be that I need to indulge in some TLC to the whole front wheel, suspension assembly.

:shock:
 
Yeah its not cheap- but its worth it- I was lucky though with the parts- £0 just labour costs
 
This is what's getting me. I have the vibrations (well the car does) and I can't diagnose the problem as yet. Have new wishbones and bushes, new drop links, new coilovers (this is when the vibes came), so my only other guesses going by previous help is the CV joints or possibly the track rod ends...or both.

Forgot to book mine in for an MOT today so will do it tomorrow if I don't forget again...when this is getting done I might be able to pinpoint the problem.
 
doubt its the track rod ends, most likely CV joints, however non standard wheels where the spiggot holes are bigger then standard that arent centered on the hub lips properly will cause it, just need spiggot rings
 
ScubaSteve said:
doubt its the track rod ends, most likely CV joints, however non standard wheels where the spiggot holes are bigger then standard that arent centered on the hub lips properly will cause it, just need spiggot rings

I didn't get back to the thread yesterday.... yes standard wheels, with the prop alloys.
 
Having a very similar problem on mine. Heavy vibration on acceleration at +50mph and on exiting roundabouts & left handers. Have had the fronts aligned & balanced last week to minimal effect so had my local friendly mechanic check it out during the service today and he says the bearings in the driveshaft joint thingy are worn.

Very hard to source an inner driveshaft apparently but the bit I need is fortunately separate and £100 less, and should be arriving tomorrow. has warned me not to drive it in the meantime as he knows how & where I drive as there is a risk it could seize up and pull the back of the engine off. :eek:

I'd suggest, get a professional to take a look rather than spend a fortune changing all the bits that it could be
 
Yeah, I have left the Puma at my mothers - where it may get a once a week, short hop to the grocery store - and I have stolen her car for now. When I get time, in a week or so, I will take it round to mechanic friend of mine and let him have a good tinker with it. Will also pass him a copy of the thread so he knows the thoughts of the 'Puma collective'.

:eek:k:
 
Had my joint (CV? driveshaft?) changed and it didn't fix it. Judder came back pretty much straight away, though the bearing in the joint was badly worn and needed replacing anyway.

Have it booked in for another bout of diagnosis but am expecting to have to source an os inner driveshaft.
 
Sorry for hijacking someone else's thread, but my vibration is proving to be a tricky bugger.

Vibration is worst when accelerating out of left hand bends and accelerating at motorway speeds yet there is no vibration when there is little or no load going through, which points towards driveshaft or gearbox (bearings?) I am told.

Trusted, experienced garage chap says he is stumped. He can find no cause for the vibration, nothing is loose, bent or worn. He tried swapping wheels around and so on but nothing affects it.

He has suggested changing the driveshaft as it is the most likely cause, but if it was, he would have expected to see some evidence of it when underneath it today. At £90 + labour, I'm reluctant to fork out if its not going to fix it especially as I'll be looking to swap cars in 6 months.
 
Yoda said:
Sorry for hijacking someone else's thread, but my vibration is proving to be a tricky bugger.

Vibration is worst when accelerating out of left hand bends and accelerating at motorway speeds yet there is no vibration when there is little or no load going through, which points towards driveshaft or gearbox (bearings?) I am told.

Trusted, experienced garage chap says he is stumped. He can find no cause for the vibration, nothing is loose, bent or worn. He tried swapping wheels around and so on but nothing affects it.

He has suggested changing the driveshaft as it is the most likely cause, but if it was, he would have expected to see some evidence of it when underneath it today. At £90 + labour, I'm reluctant to fork out if its not going to fix it especially as I'll be looking to swap cars in 6 months.


Hi-jack away - it's all good.

I have barely been running the Puma for the last few months but am getting it looked at - regarding all of the above issues next week. I had a look at the wheel concerned myself and I am certain the wheel bearing needs replaced... but that is only part of it - the other fault symptoms do seem to point to driveshaft/balljoints. Or something of that ilk.

Here's hoping it can be diagnosed and sorted.... fingers crossed.
 
Cheers Mikey,
Funnily enough I have that as a possible on my 'to do' list i.e. check engine mounts. Gave them a very quick look at a few weeks back but couldn't get right under the car to inspect all round the engine.

If anyone knows where I should be looking for the mounts I'd appreciate it. I spotted one on the top of the engine on the drivers side and something that connected the gearbox - I think - under the passenger side which looked like it had something in the way of a bush but apart from them I'm clueless.
 
As I have mentioned on a different 'fault' thread of mine... this area of the car is damned hard to diagnose as there are so many components that could produce the same symptoms when they begin to fail, or perish.

I just popped out to the Puma, got it up on axle stands and had a bit of a poke about... apart from a few sets of bushes that are nearing the end of their natural life, there doesn't seem to be anything glaringly obvious that's wrong. The gaiter on the half-shafts seem fine - all looks well apart from a fair amount of crud around the whole area.

The passenger side shaft does have a small amount of play - can maybe make it move about 1/8th of an inch and it makes a clicking sound...
Taking it to see mechanic around the corner later.

Whilst I was down there I did notice an oil leak (unsure of source as yet), and the heat shield hanging down from the exhaust.... will sort them in due course.
 
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