Ecoboost 1.6 / ST180 swap - info needed

[andeben]

Hi all

I'm trying to gather some information on installing an Ecoboost 1.6 / ST180 engine (JTJA) in the Puma. Has anyone done this and/or has anyone looked at doing it?

I'll probably be looking to retain the B6 gearbox.

What are the main challenges doing this swap? After a bit of internet trawling I can't see that much info. I saw a thread on fitting the B6 to the Puma engine but not a complete engine and gearbox swap.

Any info greatly appreciated. If you think it's a good or bad idea please comment as well! My gut feeling is that this is a good idea - especially for me as I'll mainly be using the car for Autoslaloms (in Norway), so I want to keep the front end weight down and maintain good handling.

Cheers
Ben

 

[SLEEMAN]

I think you are going to need the whole fiesta st wiring loom for it to work plus custom exhaust system I would imagine, and maybe different mounts etc.

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

Firstly, you have to decide how will you be running the engine. It is a very complex engine (in terms of engine management) as it has twin VCT, direct injection and turbo. Unfortunately, not something that you can map on your own in a garage.

If you adopt the stock (OEM, Ford) PCM approach, then you have even bigger mountain to climb. Fiesta ST180 uses CANBUS, puma does not. THat means that t run the engine succesfully you would need to replicate complete wiring of fiesta ST180 (including door locks etc).
To complicate matters even more: instrument cluster is gateway for canbus (low speed and hispeed CAN meeet there) so you need it included as well. ST180 uses ABS for speed signal. Puma does not (it has VSS in gearbox - B6 has no provision for such thing).
Also, engine has to use FBW throttle (no cable like puma) and once you sorted out these problems you can start worrying about engine mounts...

 

[g-whizz]

[post]360702[/post] Hi all

I'm trying to gather some information on installing an Ecoboost 1.6 / ST180 engine (JTJA) in the Puma. Has anyone done this and/or has anyone looked at doing it?...
Any info greatly appreciated. If you think it's a good or bad idea please comment as well! My gut feeling is that this is a good idea -
Ben

Would love to see someone take this on, not for the faint hearted, as Sinisa makes clear above, but this thread might help with ideas, may be worth contacting the team involved? Not exactly the same but a starting point for info?
https://passionford.com/forum/restorations-rebuilds-and-projects/451909-tim-s-performance-blue-s1600-2-0-ecoboost-engine-swap-370lbft-270whp.html

[post]360708[/post] Firstly, you have to decide how will you be running the engine. It is a very complex engine (in terms of engine management) as it has twin VCT, direct injection and turbo. Unfortunately, not something that you can map on your own in a garage.

If you adopt the stock (OEM, Ford) PCM approach, then you have even bigger mountain to climb. Fiesta ST180 uses CANBUS, puma does not. THat means that t run the engine succesfully you would need to replicate complete wiring of fiesta ST180 (including door locks etc).
To complicate matters even more: instrument cluster is gateway for canbus (low speed and hispeed CAN meeet there) so you need it included as well. ST180 uses ABS for speed signal. Puma does not (it has VSS in gearbox - B6 has no provision for such thing).
Also, engine has to use FBW throttle (no cable like puma) and once you sorted out these problems you can start worrying about engine mounts...

...I can't quite put my finger on it but there's something about this post that has me convinced you are related to my missus Sinisa :lol:

 

[siju]

With the OEM fiesta ecu-loom it seems rather difficult as Sinisa pointed. Maybe if you use an aftermarket standalone ecu that can control twin vct/fbw/direct injection.
In any case it seems to me that it's easier to build a 1.7 turbo that can have power in par with the fiesta. Then your only worry will be the engine blowing up in which case you can start again with another 200pound 1.7 engine!

 

[oilburner]

The 1.6 Ecoboost is actually a development of the Zetec SE, the block is the same but the cylinder head is different. It's possible to see up to 300bhp out of one at the moment.

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

Oh, yes, one more point to make: ST180 uses electrical servo so no provision for a servopump there..... Another thing to sort out

(so sorry, I am not a joy division today)

 

[andeben]

I'm glad I asked at least! A few things I was thinking of and a few I wasn't. I agree turboing the 1.7 could be an option (or even a 1.6?), but I like the idea of using newer technology :grin: In my head the car would be reliable with 180bhp as a starting point, right?! Plus I will be making it lighter.

I guess the mechanical issues, although scary (I'm assuming custom driveshafts as well), are do-able. Lack of servo pump would mean installing an electric one I guess, also do-able (not sure I fancy trying to get approval for an electric column).

I would almost definitely be going aftermarket ECU with a digidash, I've had issues before trying to resolve immobilisers and what-not. Switchable maps could also add to the fun! Changing to throttle-by-wire has also been done before, so, possible.

All this being said I want the car to be road registered which means I have to get approval for the modifications first and then get it inspection approved once done. I might contact some ECU suppliers and see what they say (can post findings if people are interested). If I can collect enough info I can at least send an application in for the approval and see if that goes through. The car is standard now so I'll need to include changes for suspension, brakes, wheels etc.

Thanks for the comments so far folks, any further input is appreciated!

Cheers
Ben

 

[red]

All I can add is good luck, it'd be awesome to see!

 

[corley]

[post]360730[/post] I'm glad I asked at least! A few things I was thinking of and a few I wasn't. I agree turboing the 1.7 could be an option (or even a 1.6?), but I like the idea of using newer technology :grin: In my head the car would be reliable with 180bhp as a starting point, right?! Plus I will be making it lighter.

I guess the mechanical issues, although scary (I'm assuming custom driveshafts as well), are do-able. Lack of servo pump would mean installing an electric one I guess, also do-able (not sure I fancy trying to get approval for an electric column).

I would almost definitely be going aftermarket ECU with a digidash, I've had issues before trying to resolve immobilisers and what-not. Switchable maps could also add to the fun! Changing to throttle-by-wire has also been done before, so, possible.

All this being said I want the car to be road registered which means I have to get approval for the modifications first and then get it inspection approved once done. I might contact some ECU suppliers and see what they say (can post findings if people are interested). If I can collect enough info I can at least send an application in for the approval and see if that goes through. The car is standard now so I'll need to include changes for suspension, brakes, wheels etc.

Thanks for the comments so far folks, any further input is appreciated!

Cheers
Ben

you can turbo charge the 1.7 or 1.6 - basically you can turbo any engine providing you have the skill or cash to do it.

everything listed above by yourself and others is a massive task and would effectively be like taking on 4 - 5 projects to get the car running(remember most people fail and struggle with just one project and give up let alone multiple projects)

 

[stuvy]

[post]360734[/post]

[post]360730[/post] I'm glad I asked at least! A few things I was thinking of and a few I wasn't. I agree turboing the 1.7 could be an option (or even a 1.6?), but I like the idea of using newer technology :grin: In my head the car would be reliable with 180bhp as a starting point, right?! Plus I will be making it lighter.

I guess the mechanical issues, although scary (I'm assuming custom driveshafts as well), are do-able. Lack of servo pump would mean installing an electric one I guess, also do-able (not sure I fancy trying to get approval for an electric column).

I would almost definitely be going aftermarket ECU with a digidash, I've had issues before trying to resolve immobilisers and what-not. Switchable maps could also add to the fun! Changing to throttle-by-wire has also been done before, so, possible.

All this being said I want the car to be road registered which means I have to get approval for the modifications first and then get it inspection approved once done. I might contact some ECU suppliers and see what they say (can post findings if people are interested). If I can collect enough info I can at least send an application in for the approval and see if that goes through. The car is standard now so I'll need to include changes for suspension, brakes, wheels etc.

Thanks for the comments so far folks, any further input is appreciated!

Cheers
Ben

you can turbo charge the 1.7 or 1.6 - basically you can turbo any engine providing you have the skill or cash to do it.

everything listed above by yourself and others is a massive task and would effectively be like taking on 4 - 5 projects to get the car running(remember most people fail and struggle with just one project and give up let alone multiple projects)

Totally agree with this

Just turbo charge the 1.7 and build it up using quality parts for a reliable bhp

 

[CeReD]

look into throttle bodies, for about £2-3k (lightning motorsport for example) you'll see 180BHP, not the same MPG as an ST180 but just as much fun. 150-180BHP in a Puma goes very, very far

 

[drmotorsport]

I think it would be very possible assuming you have plenty of money, time, and technical ability! But I love the idea of a modern engine in a relatively retro shell.

Practically i think there are 2 options to make this work:
1. Probably easiest option is to keep everything OEM and install the engine, gearbox, and most importantly wiring loom/ECU/instruments from a donor car. As modern engines are very complex and reply on sensors, CAN bus etc the whole lot needs looking at as a package. And of course you've still got the mechanical issues such as driveshafts, engine mounts, gearbox linkage etc.
2. For maximum pain you could loose the OEM ECU and loom and craft your own with a probably very expensive ECU that is capable of driving all the features of a complex modern turbo engine. Maybe see if MSport will sell you one of their Fiesta R5 engines so most of the work is done for you!

 

[andeben]

I've done a bit more digging. For a standalone ECU solution the main options identified so far are Life Racing, Specialist Components (SCS-Delta?) and SBD. I sent a mail to Haltech to ask if they can do it too - the main issues are (Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) and the Twin independent Variable Cam Timing (Ti-VCT)). A few Westfields are using the 1.6 so there is some info there.

As mentioned, the car would be focused for Autoslaloms in a modified class (i.e. against Porsche 996, Modified E30s...) so the low-end torque of the 1.6 ecoboost is very interesting - standard turbo solution would have more lag (I assume), I'm not sure what a throttle bodied 1.7 torque/power curve looks like (not as impressive as the 1.6 ecoboost I assume, again).

In order to get the car approved over here all the mods need to be well documented and ideally aligned with the ST180. My main uncertainty (today) is how to justify use of the puma hubs and outboard driveshaft ends. I understand I can uprate the hub bearing but I'm not sure that would cover it. From what I can tell the ST180 has more splines on the driveshaft, larger hubs and 5 stud hubs. Any input on this would be appreciated!

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

[post]360833[/post] My main uncertainty (today) is how to justify use of the puma hubs and outboard driveshaft ends. I understand I can uprate the hub bearing but I'm not sure that would cover it. From what I can tell the ST180 has more splines on the driveshaft, larger hubs and 5 stud hubs. Any input on this would be appreciated!

Nope, wrong!

The gearbox side (i.e. h diff) is different, but that is about it. I have ST180 driveshafts and:

- they go in puma hubs no problem (meaning they do fit in)
- don't know about the size of the hubs, but keeping in mind the previous it is irelevant
- the ST180 hubs are 4 stud design, same as puma (PCD 108 mm)

 

[andeben]

So they are! I think that's good news. It's just the lengths that would be an unknown then in terms of the actual driveline.... I think...

 

[JCJ007]

It does sound highly complex, expensive, ambitious but brilliant if you could do it. I did wonder but it takes a brave man to take that one on. May as well take a 2016 Fiesta ST to bits and rebody it in a Puma. I think this thread is a red flag to Ford... Puma 2018 how's about it then? Come on why not? it would look cool and sell like mad!

 

[Danonaban]

Has anybody yet taken this challenge on? I’ve just been offered an ST180 lump with all ancillaries, gearbox, loom, ecu, clocks (modify dash to suit, then have it flocked), key etc. Its just missing the rad and oil cooler. I know of an omex 600 ecu I could get cheap if needed. Would I need an ST180 brake setup too?

 

[red]

Not as far as I know.

 

[Paramanic]

This is a very interesting subject. Someone stuck one in a caterham recently with a mx5 gearbox.
Companies like pumaspeed sell aftermarket ECUs which might solve some of the issues. I'm sure the Locks etc are on the internal loom and the Ecu doesnt need to run this as there was a guy in Scotland who stuck one in a ST170 he mentioned this to my mate whos a ford tech recently at a car show.