Mk1 Focus RS powered Puma, now going RWD, JWRC

[McCloud 85]

Yes annoyed to say the least. There is quite some story behind this engine now, but hopefully this time around we will be able to put it right once and for all.

Bank robbery depending of course...

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Guys
Really sorry to hear this, I hope you get it sorted soon, if it's re-bore associated I hope it's well within max tolerance.
Barry

 

[moondustka]

So, definitely gone backwards...













However, that actually only took 5 and half hours to get to that and included stripping the engine of all the unnesscary stuff preparing for a rebuild.

The engine is currently with a specialist, they have diagnosed the following:

26% maximum cylinder leakage
Piston to bor clearances double what they should be.
Crankshaft end float face is badly worn and now requires a new crank (unfortunately an expensive part)
Valves are also leaking.
Oil pump that was new 5000 miles ago is worn, probably from end float in the crank!

I don't think they've dismantled the head yet so unsure of the state of valve guides, valves, camshafts etc.


Looking very sad :-( I think I need to set up a charity for this car :lol:

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Ben
That's terrible news. Is the crank steel in the FRS hence the "expensive part"? I hope you manage to get it diagnosed and fixed soon.
Barry

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

Arghhh! That is simply not fair! Life can be a b...h sometimes indeed!

 

[moondustka]

Hi Barry,

Unfortunately not, it's a cast iron item and I've since found out that the end float face isn't very large and apparently is an older design, which doesn't help with the wear (typical Ford).

Anyhow, new crank from Ford is £730 - ouch. New steel crank is £1500 - more ouch. Most newer engines now have steel crankshafts as far as I can work out, as well as an aluminium block.

The Zetec is/can be a good engine, but certain characteristics of it are old design. Having said that, it was first designed 20 years ago!

Ben

 

[moondustka]

[post]351855[/post] Arghhh! That is simply not fair! Life can be a b...h sometimes indeed!

It certainly doesn't seem to be!

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Ben
If it's a cast crank is it not a standard blacktop one then? If it is you can pick up a second hand blacktop one for peanuts now as all the classic car/7 guys want silvertops.
Barry

 

[moondustka]

Hi Barry,

I'm thinking you only live once, and a steel crank might be on the cards. I didn't know before but heavy clutches (which mine is) are not very kind to the crankshaft journal bearings and therefore cause excess wear on the end float face. A steel crankshaft will help a lot as the material is much harder. They might try to make the face and bearing larger to make it better, though that sounded expensive!

Oh and more good news...

All the valves and guides are worn!

I'll be amazed if this doesn't make better power when built and fully run in.

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

It really did get going now, didn't it?

 

[moondustka]

Oh yes.

I think the camshafts are ok, as well as the followers.

They are also struggling to get a slightly larger piston from Cosworth so they can re-bore, . If they can't then we are looking at liners and re-using the pistons. It sounds like they would prefer not to go down the liner route, it would also mean I could sell the existing pistons on as there is nothing wrong with them, they have also only done 5000 miles approx.

The head never had any work done when Dan had this engine 're-built'. The bottom end just wasn't re-built properly - it's evident that the block and parts used weren't measured correctly before assembling.

Although the head is worn, the major issue was large end float in the crank, and piston to bore clearance being too large.

I'm also in the process of starting to make a new breather system/separator pot as I want to make sure the new engine can breathe as freely as possible, whilst catching the oil vapour and returning it to the sump.

In addition, if I have to get this engine mapped again, it would be prudent to upgrade the fuel pump as we were struggling with fuel last time it was mapped and we calculated it's not injectors because Dan is using the same on more power. However, the struggle in fuel could have come because the air/fuel mixture was getting diluted with oil in the combustion chambers! I need to ask them about that.

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Ben
Might this help:
http://www.kitspares.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=273&search=zetec+engine
I'm probably wrong about this but it looks like your FRS engine is a blacktop with different pistons, rods and cams. If your pistons are ok and are standard bore you could re-ring them and use them with the rods in this brand new Ford crate engine. There's also a lot of standard stuff you could sell on off the crate engine and the only thing that's missing is the dipstick and tube.
Barry

 

[moondustka]

Hi Barry,

Thanks for that. Unfortunately the pistons are already larger than standard. I've since gone down the expensive 'rabbit hole' and the bottom end and head are both getting lots of TLC.

Block will be machined to accept liners to suit the existing pistons as they have survived unscathed!
Existing steel rods and pistons will be re-used with new rings
Steel crank has been purchased
New oil pump. Will be getting EN24 steel billet pump gears.
All new bearings obviously
The head is having new valves, new guides and the valve seats re-cut. The head has already had some decent porting and polishing done so it's worth saving.

I'm also currently making an oil separator/breather pot, so will get some photos up soon.

I've also got a couple of pics of the worn crank and where the end float was coming from.

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Ben
Wow, that's some expense but glad you've found out where the problem was. Just as a matter of interest are you using a standard front crank pulley as I've heard rumours of non standard ones causing oil pump drive gear failures.
Hopefully in the next couple of months I'll be joining you in building a 2.1 silvertop for my road Westy as I'm fed up with the lack of HP in mine.
Barry

 

[moondustka]

Yes, still using a standard (and a bit rusty to be quite honest) pulley. I'd rather have a rusty looking pulley than a dead engine :lol:

I heard that oil pump failures seemed to be more common on the silvertop. Why not go for a blacktop? Also the reason I'm going for the EN24 gears, though not cheap.

The rotating bottom end will get balanced together also - pulley, crank and flywheel which should help a lot.

 

[moondustka]

This is what not to find on your crank..


Smooth this side..


And.. OMG, what happened!...



You can see how the crankshaft journal has just worn away.

Here is the bearing that sits inside



You can see on one side it's worn down by at least 1 to 1.5mm. Couple that with the same worn on the crank and thats moving around by 3mm+ :shock:

Tolerance should be something like 40 microns, which is 0.04mm. Just enough to allow oil round.

Anyway, rubbish design as that bearing is only 180 degrees of the 360 degrees of the crank. So when you push the clutch down the crank and bearing are going to want to cut into one another :roll: The engine builders are going to modify it so it has a 360 face to push on so it shouldn't happen again. The steel crankshaft will help a lot too.

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Ben
I've never seen a thrust bearing like that before, so it's a combined main bearing/thrust bearing but as you say for only 180 deg of the crank. The engines I've built before (older) have always had segments separate from the mains. I would also be looking at replacing your clutch with something a bit lighter to prevent this from happening again.
The reason I'm going for a silvertop is mainly the sump, the standard silvertop sump is ok on 7s whereas the blacktop really needs the expensive Raceline one. There are also changes to the engine mounts, water hoses and alternator mounts on the blacktop and as my original engine is a silvertop it's a no brainer. I might use a blacktop head though as it has bigger valves and solid lifters.
Barry

 

[moondustka]

Hi Barry,

Yes my initial thoughts were get a different clutch, but the engine builders seemed to have the opinion that that's not really solving the problem, which they're going to try and do by adding a piece of that journal bearing to the other side to make it a 360 degrees face which will greatly improve the reliability.

Again, no point changing clutch if I get a lighter one and it starts slipping. The only way I can see around it is to hybrid something up and got a twin plate clutch meant for something else, as they don't do them for this engine and gearbox as far as I'm aware.

Sounds easier to stick with the silvertop then! I would recommend the upgraded oil pump gears, especially if you like the limiter :lol:

I think one day I must buy or build a Zetec turbo'd kit car because it would just be epic :grin:

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Ben
It might be worth contacting Paul Dunnell for info on clutches and maybe even info on thrust bearings as he seems to be one of the main men for Zetec E engines. I like the idea of doubling up on your thrust bearings so I hope if there are any locating tangs on the bearings they match up.
Yeah do it Ben, buy a nice 7 and have some fun. Dave B on here (the tyre man) has a 300hp locost(Nissan 1.8sx lump) and another mate has a 370hp supercharged S2000 Westy.
I will go for upgraded oil pump gears as I want the engine to last.
Barry

 

[moondustka]

After a relatively long conversation with the guy at IK engineering he agreed that the 360 thrust bearing/washer would be a good idea, but didn't seem to think it necessary. As you said Barry, the issue seems to be with the clutch. IK engineering manufacturer engine parts for Ford Zetec, Cosworth YB, Pinto and crossflow to name a few, he even had several steel cranks for zetecs on the shelf. He said he'd never come across a Zetec having end float trouble..

So, spoke to the engine builders - he still suggested having the block machined to be to add a thrust washer, but agreed that it might be worth looking into another clutch also. Let's add that to the bill then!! :roll: :lol:

Doesn't Paul Dunnell deal mostly with N/A engines though? a standard FRS clutch would be suitable for those. I have been looking at AP clutches, either the uprated organic one or the 6 paddle.

Wow, those cars must be awesome fun. Just want to see a turbo'd one.. heck I haven't even been in one :lol:

One thing at a time though!