Forced Induction on the Puma

[EvilDonut]

I've been looking into getting a bit of forced induction on the puma, on the cheap of course The direction I want to go is something like:
-Eaton M45 Supercharger
-Replace aircon unit
-Low boost setup (keep it 5psi or below)
-No intercooler (keeps it simple! no i/c is fine for low boost)

Questions:
1) Is the Eaton M45 suitable? I want low boost, so is there a smaller s/c available if the M45 is overkill?
2) Can the engine take it with stock internals? It currently runs 10.3:1 compression ratio which is quite high, with 4psi boost that makes 12.7:1 or so, meaning 5psi is probably unsafe! What c/r can the engine take?
3) If not, is a decompression plate the best(cheapest/easiest) way to go? I read a 2mm decomp plate gives 8.5:1, that might make things easier but is that a bit low considering my low boost setup, as each 1 drop = 5% drop in power? So maybe 1mm?
4) Should I go for higher boost? I've been assuming that low boost is essential for simplicity/engine safety but this might not be the case, espcially if I go and get a decomp plate.
5) What modifications(if any) are necessary for the fuel injection system? I'm thinking 5th injector(like BlackKnight suggests) or an FMU
6) Will I need to modify the throttle body/MAF assembly to put lips on the connectors? I forget if they have them already, but for boosted induction lips are needed right?
7) Will I need a dump valve at all? They are more for turbos from what I understand.
8.) Would I need a different (or even custom made) pulley to achieve the correct boost?
9) What route should the pipes/hoses take? Its a pain as the a/c is on the opposite side to the throttle body intake.

Thats all I can think of for now!

Oh by the way, has anyone looked into electric superchargers? There are a lot of obvious fakes out there but one or two viable looking ones. Any opinions on these? If they are genuine then electrics offer massive advantages (low lag rpm-independant full boost, get to keep air con)! An example of a genuine-looking one: http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight_turbo_electric_supercharger/index.html

 

[luke]

http://www.projectpuma.com/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=6583&hilit=budget+turbo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
turbos can be done on the cheap

 

[EvilDonut]

Yep I'm looking for something this kind of price range I think! I've read that post a couple of times now during research for the supercharger and found it quite useful.

My main obstacle now is worrying about having to modify the engine internals to change compression ratio - I really want to avoid this if I can!

 

[luke]

puma noob had a spacer made up where the head gasket goes to jack up the head slightly to lower the compression
irrc it was only 40 odd quid too.

 

[EvilDonut]

Yep those decompression plates sound ideal for me - they are 2mm and would lower the CR to 8.5:1, which would allow me to run more like 10psi or even more. I would try and go for one of these IF it turns out I need to lower the CR, but hopefully I don't! The problem is lowering the CR reduces power output by 5% per '1' you reduce the CR by. So maybe I could go for a 1mm or 1.5mm plate instead.

I did some calculations and it looks like my final compression ratio would be 13.8:1 given a max boost of 5psi and an unaspirated CR of 10.3:1 (stock engine). Does anyone know if this is too high? I suspect it is

 

[luke]

i should say so bearing in mind the delicate bore linings and the sintered rods.

 

[BlackKnight1982]

If you check on my supercharger thread theres pics of a m45 fitted on a 1.7 zetec se engine but in a vauxhall kadett.
As this road hasnt really been tested that much its all a bit of trial.
Im looking about 6-7 psi but i will be starting out with a low 3 psi using inlet restrictor on my supercharger then test the CR as i increase the boost.
Though im using a rotrex with a intercooler which doesn't create as much inlet temps as a screw type supercharger and well loads less than a turbo.
If i need a decomp plate i will just fit one, i think a m45 is a good strong supercharger it will pull well low down, plus u will have the VCT help pull later up the rev range, you could run a chargecooler if you wanted too!
My rotrex supercharger is a centrifugial type so it makes variable boost according to revs, the flow rate can be adjusted by pulley type tho.
I wouldn't worry about lips on a low boost application.

 

[EvilDonut]

I looked into a rotrex and they were by far a better choice - even just for size alone! But of course the price was prohibitive given my budget

The M45 is the most suitable I can find - its actually overkill though as its rated to 10psi for a 2.0L engine iirc. Hence if I'd get a different size pulley to run at 5psi (unless I got some kind of pressure regulation device like your inlet restrictor). The pully ratio would need to be around 1.52:1 for 5psi in a 1.7L engine, as oppose to the standard M45's 2:1.

3psi sounds very sensible at first. How will you test the CR? I'm hoping that if the standard engine can run 10.3:1 on standard octane, then around 14:1 on premium would not be completely unrealistic. Further research needed on this however!

I've looked into electric s/c methods a bit more - it needs a beefy electric motor, say around 5-10hp which (at 12v) would be around 600amps of current draw. I was thinking something along the lines of 4 batteries in the boot in series (48V) with some high-power current switching circuitry to allow them to go into 'recharge mode' and 'supercharger mode', and to provide the variable speed control that would be necessary (unless some kind of pressure regulator is used to bleed off the extra boost - anyone know of such a device? Dump valves arent suitable for regulation right, just intermittent release of pressure?). The 5-10hp DC motors are about £200-400 - more than the M45 itself!

The sole advantage this electric s/c method is that it would not consume ANY engine power to generate its boost, but with all the fuss about having extra batteries, switching circuits and heavy/expensive motors I now see why they aren't commonplace! When you consider the extra weight, the overall net gain in bhp/tonne might be lower than simply running it off the aux belt. How cool would it be though

 

[BlackKnight1982]

My mate has got a compression tester which tells u the compression on each cylinder.
I looked into electric superchargers but found it a bit of dead end!
The weight in batteries wouldn't justify the 10bhp increase.
You could can use a inlet restrictor on the rotrex and on turbo's, im not to sure on the m45 but pretty sure it would be same case as all your doing is not giving it as much air to compress hence it lowers boost.
If you go on eatons website they have a brilliant app which you put your car details in like engine size, comp pressure, bhp@rpm etc select the supercharger you want and it will give you a graph on what power/torque through your rev range it will make.

 

[PumaNoob]

Looks like you've done your research mate, if you are going for a supercharger, you don't need to lower the compression, as the stock engine will take 6 psi with a turbo without or intercooler, so a supercharger won't produce as high inlet temps,& cylinder temps will be cooler as the engine is not working as hard to get rid of gasses if you have a 4-2-1 or similar fitted. Electric supercharger (the real ones) I think only produce 2 or 3 psi, you might aswell do it properly with a real 1. The eaton M45 is a good choice, but it's quite a big charger, it produces 10psi at 14000revs (charger revs) on a 1.6, so quite a good size, but my personal opinion would be if your not going to lower compression, get a charge cooler or intercooler, the performance would be better, and engine safer, and minimal work to fit!!

 

[PumaNoob]

Oh, and I ran up to 7 psi with just the FRP map, and it fuelled just fine, but anything above that, I think the fuel pump can't fuel enough for, not sure if it was because my pump was on it's way out, or that it just can't fuel for that much power. I'd reccomend you get a rising rate regulator, that way you can set the pressure to what you like, and the fuel rail pressure will increase a little more the. The manifold pressure to counteract the boost in the cylinders. Don't use an fmu, it will just overfuel, I've tried 2 different types, and they don't work on Zetec engines, or rover engines, I've tried them on 3 different turbo conversions, & they overfuelled on all of them, but the powerboost valve worked great on all of them. I'd try that 1st as you can pick them up for less then £30 of fleabay, and then look at the more expensive 5th injector if your not happy with it, but at 5 or less psi, I'm confident you won't need it.

There is an actuator set up available for the M45, but again not cheap. If you go for a regulator your charger is taking away power from the engine for (lets say) 10psi, but only producing half that, so not so efficient, but you will hit max psi earlier in the rev range! If you use a custom pulley, your only taking enough power away from the engine to get the required boost, so more efficient, but you'll only get max boost at max rpm!! So it's just what you choose to do really

 

[EvilDonut]

Thanks for the advice! I've been thinking about going for a turbo as it seems to be more common and therefore well documented (which is good for me as I've not done this kind of thing before!), and I wouldn't have to sacrifice my nice air con Max boost at low rpm would be nice too. Turbos are also a lot more common on ebay so I should be able to find the correct one for me for a reasonable price.

What turbo would you recommend for the puma, given my target boost of around 5psi? The T25 looks decent, are there any others you are aware of that would work? My main issue is attaching the actual turbo and generally sorting the exhaust setup - any hints for that? I reread your turbo post and didnt see much on how the turbo attaches (but I've not had my coffee yet so probably skipped over it)...do you need to custom-build an adapter flange or anything?

I'm running with all stock manifolds etc. I'll probably use silicone hoses and go over the top of the engine. I've read that even if the pipes get hot from the engine bay it doesn't matter as the air is flowing through so fast it hardly has any time to absorb that heat. It would make things simpler if I didn't go for an intercooler, which might be possible as I'm only running 5psi, however as its a turbo it would be quite a bit more risky for the poor little engine.

Good tips for the fuelling...I would have gone for a 4:1 or 6:1 FMU if you hadn't told me that! Did you sort out your fuelling using the stock narrowband lambda sensor with a narrowband gauge, or did you fork out for a wideband?

As an aside, changed my spark plugs today and found the last mechanic who touched it had disconnected what I think is either the camshaft position sensor or some VCT control stuff, and forgotten to reconnect it before putting the cover back on! The car has been running fine despite this, but I'm hoping now that I've reattached it I'll notice some power gains as the ECU won't be missing some semi-vital connection. Going out to test it soon Anyone know what the connector is that is on the near-right side of the top of the engine, just under the plastic cover, as you are standing at the front of the car facing it?

EDIT: no difference!

 

[PumaNoob]

That's really weird mate, that's the cam position sensor, my car didn't run very well with that disconnected!! I really should have done more on the fitting of the turbo, and engine build, but I get excited like a kid at Christmas, & forgot to stop & take pics!! The guy I got my decomp plate from will do you an adaptor plate to adapt the std exhaust manifold to bolt a turbo straight to it, i think around £25 plus postage. Then you just need a custom exhaust from the turbo to your cat back.

For 5 psi, you could use pretty much any small turbo, the T2 off the fiesta rs is quite easy to get hold of, & as you say, the T25 is also a good choice, but don't rule out most turbo diesel turbo's, they tend to be cheaper, and ideal for low boost applications. Just try not to go too big, or you'll get more lag.why don't you get a small intercooler, you'll be so much safer, and there's nothing to it, you can still bring the pipes over the top of the engine, but just a break before the throttle body, and get a small double pass cooler, with intake and outlet right next to each other? You'll get more efficiency, and more safety.


Im using the stock lambda mate, i set it up the best i could, and then took it to a mate at my MOT garage to check it out with an exhaust lambda probe, and its running sweet, althout ill need to get it set up again after fitting the new pump

Where abouts are you based mate?

 

[PumaNoob]

Heres a pic i did for another member who was going to do a turbo conversion, just so you know what your looking at

Here is how my turbo is fixed, the flange was cut off, and a new flange welded on, sorry you cant see much

And here is a pic of a turbo kit, so you will know what bits you need (no intercooler). Its a Van Aaken kit, not mine, but same thing really

 

[EvilDonut]

Cheers for that...thats the kind of adapter thing I thought I'd be needing. I'm based in manchester, how about you? And this turbo project won't go ahead for 1-3 months as I'm skint haha...but wanna get it fully planned out down to the exact parts I'm going to buy so it stands the best chance of actually going ahead once funds are available!

I looked on ebay and saw a lot of turbo diesel ones for decent prices so thought I could go for one of those...but my issue is finding the 'best fit' for the puma...i.e. the one that will be easiest to adapt to the manifold/downpipe, that physically fits the best, and isn't 'overkill' for 5psi (so not too much lag). The T2 sounds like a good option given the similarities between the puma and the fiesta...its not that common/cheap on ebay though I'll investigate the various TD ones.

I'll take your advice and go for an intercooler too...how did you mount it in relation to the main radiator and a/c radiator? Or is there a better place for it? I thought about having a cold air feed hose just to the I/C, or bonnet vents, so I could put it anywhere.

I just drew a diagram of what I'm aiming for: (and what a work of art it is! )

And heres my current guess at a parts list:
-----turbo stuff-----
turbo (T2, T25, etc)
manifold->turbo flange
custom downpipe, or turbo->existing-downpipe adapter
oil feed/return pipes (if needed)

-----airflow stuff-----
induction cone (already have k&n 57i)
intercooler
cone->turbo hose (with dump valve intake for the recirculating bit)
turbo->intercooler hose
intercooler->MAF hose (with dump valve, boost gauge, and poweboost valve outlets)
MAF->throttle body hose (at least 8 inches so no MAF turbulance)

boost controller/dump valve/BOV (ideally recirculating?)
hose for the boost controller
a/f gauge (wideband if poss, in which case w/b lambda sensor too)
boost gauge + hose

-----fuel stuff-----
powerboost valve
fuel hose (if needed)
small hose to connect powerboost valve to airflow hose

 

[PumaNoob]

Yeah mate, good drawing, its the general gist of the turbo set up, but your boost controller is in the wrong place, youve got 1 side correct (after the intercooler), but the other side goes to the turbo actuator.

When you say which turbo will fit the puma best, this is the reason i used a saab turbo!! Other then the size, its got a very simple downpipe flange. Just a 2.5 inch circle, with a flange with 3 holes, easy to make a custom pipe! But the T2 has a really strange looking flange, looks like a nissan or rover flange, and aswell as getting the actual flange, i could imagine it would be hard to bend a stainless pipe to that dimension, so your stuck with the stock elbow, which is fine, but could be better for flow. So something i looked at was the simplicity of the downpipe flange too. Most the sides that connect to the manifold are pretty much the same.

I love the fact that youve done so much research yourself, instead of just comming on and asking questions. That way, you can listen to peoples advice, but decide weather its right for you or not, because no doubt there will be loads of different opinions on here and other sites you go to, but you already have a plan and a route you want to go! :thumbs:

Also, not sure if you want to go with a dump valve or not, some people say it can damage your turbo as the air tries to force itself back through the turbo, but im not sure 1 way or the other on that :?: Another option is re-circulating valve, Blackknight has gone for that set up, and some say its more efficient then a dump valve, but the dump valve is easier to set up, so again, its up to your personal preference and budget.

 

[EvilDonut]

I realised my error about the boost controller just minutes before reading your post...I didn't know about wastegate actuators at all, I just assumed the boost controller was a device that vented unwanted air (like a dump valve/BOV), which I thought at the time didn't make sense as they only have small diameter vacuum pipe attachments which couldn't move much volume of air. Boost controllers are way more efficient than that as they actually allow exhaust to pass relatively unrestricted instead of pushing it all through the turbine just to generate pressure that is then wasted by the BOV...awesome Is that right by the way, or am I still misunderstanding? I'm still not certain exactly how the boost controller and wastegate actuator work together so more research required there! For example, am I right in thinking the actuators on different will be set to different boost pressures for when they're fully open? Say if I buy a turbo thats set to 10psi...but my boost controller will only ever supply 5psi as thats my max boost, so does that mean the wastegate on this turbo can never be fully opened, and thus its not as efficient as it could be?

I was going to go for a recirculating valve - in fact on my diagram that is what I thought the component labeled 'boost controller' did. I may still go for this, although I'm pretty sure it won't be noticable for such a low boost setup. I can see it would be more efficient though, as it would make the turbine do 'less work' which means less restriction on the exhaust gases. If you're at high rpm and suddenly come off the throttle say for a gear change, all that pressure would otherwise build in the pipes and make the turbine work much harder, putting quite a lot of restriction on exhaust gases....could that then cause the engine to lose power or decrease its rpm faster than normal? I'm not sure. It sounds more efficient to recirculate though

The research is fun...I just hope I have the engineering skills to make this work haha. Thats why I'm trying to tailor my design towards 'ease of engineering' rather than going for something better like decomp plates/high boost. I may try something less ambitious such as the 300mm brake upgrade first! A big problem for me is that I have no alternative car if I break the puma, and I also don't have a garage or a car lift.

 

[PumaNoob]

The info is out there mate if people are willing to share it!!
The actuator opens the waste gate once it sees the required pressure (lets say 8 psi). So the minimum pressure your going to see at max boost is 8psi, as a boost controller will only increase boost levels, it cant decrease the set actuator opening level. Once the actuator sees the 8 psi, it opens the waste gate in the turbo, and lets aditional gas not needed to turn the turbine, flow straight out the exhaust, as you said above. A boost controller is basically a blockage in the pipe to the actuator, and works like a tap, so if you let less air through, the actuator will see less boost then what is in the manifold, so therefor keeps the wastegate closed for longer, increasing the level of boost. It fools the actuator into thinking there is less boost if that makes any sence to you??
And yeah, your in the ball park for dump valves and re-circ valves mate, the turbine wont have to work as hard with a re-circ as youve not vented the built up pressure to the air, youve put it back in through induction, so kind of re-cycled it. The other thing with both dump and re-circ valves, is that when you lift off the throttle, without a re-circ or dump valve, the pressure in the inlet tries to go backwards, and tries to reverse the compressor, so slows it right down, then as soon as you hit throttle, the compressor has to build up speed again to get the boost up to required level, so you get turbo lag. But if you vent the air, the compressor keeps momentum, and so you have instant power when you hit the throttle again.

 

[EvilDonut]

Ok so boost controllers stop the wastegate being 'gradually turned on' and make it into a fully on or off device, so that max boost is reached sooner as exhaust isn't wasted. So that raises the problem that I have to find a waste gate actuator that is in the fully open state at 5psi - I doubt there are many of them! Or are they manually adjustable?

I think for my first setup I might not use a dump valve at all to keep things simpler...but could that cause dangerous pressures to build in the hose so that when the throttle opens the engine gets momentarily exposed to high boost, say 10psi? If that is the case then I definitely want a valve haha, doesn't need to be a recirc at first though I guess.

I'm currently trying to code an app for my iphone that interfaces with my ECU via bluetooth (I have a bluetooth OBD2 adapter dongle). Amongst other things, the ECU sends out its air/fuel ratio at like 20Hz. That means if I get it working this iphone app could have an air/fuel gauge on it. I would effectively have a wireless gauge that I could look at whilst adjusting the boost controller knob etc. The app could also do some data logging that I could get on my PC and make some spreadsheets to aid tuning. Theres still a lot left to do on it, and I have run into some issues that might make it impossible, but if I get it working I'll try and document it/make it available for others as that would be a massive help for any tuning.

 

[PumaNoob]

Wow, that sounds like a good app mate, keep us posted on that, as you could also set it to do engine load, ignition timing ect, and possibly bhp, which can be calculated roughly from the load, air/fuel, engine size, and compression ratio. Also tweeks for other mods can be added, that could be something big there!
The boost controller does stop the waste gate creeping open, but thats not its sole purpose, its main purpose is to stop the actuator seeing how much boost there is, to increase the intake manifold pressure. It basically turns a 5psi actuator into an adjustable actuator, from 5psi upwards, normally up to about 15/20 psi, but sometimes alot more depending on turbo and application! There are quite alot of 4/5psi actuators, i think the fiesta T2 actuator is 4 or 5psi as standard, the saab 9000 actuator is 4psi, and alot of the turbo diesel actuators will be 5 psi too, as they are mainly low boost! You wont need to install a boost controller mate, if you just run actuator pressure, you have no need for one, you can always add one at any time, takes about 5 mins.