Timing/cambelt

[CherryVimto]

I know there is a massive amount of information on here with regards to changing the cambelt, setting the tensioner correctly etc and the use of 'special' tools.

I have read all of the information and fully understand what the procedure is and why the timing/belt is set the way it is. But.. there is something I am not understanding...

With the engine out, we can use the flywheel locking tool to tighten the crank pulley bolt but with the engine in we have to use the 'special' tool(s).
Can someone explain how the use of the 'special' tool(s) actually stops the crank turning when doing up the pulley bolt considering none of those tools seems to interact with the crank at all...

Thanks

 

[DOH]

I did my cam belt recently with the engine in the car.
I have previously mentioned in one of my posts there is no need to purchase any "Special tools" to stop the crank turning . All you need is a standard 6mm allen key inserted into the flywheel teeth.
It jams up against the bell housing to stop the crank /flywheel turning.
It is inserted in the opening which can be seen from underneath the car and looking up, near to the driveshaft.
The flywheel teeth are exposed there. Ensure to clean that area so you can find the opening. as it is often covered in oil from a previously leaking rocker cover gasket.
Alternatively, you can also insert the Allen Key in at 6 o'clock on the bell housing where there is a gap. Insert your little finger through the hole and you will be able to feel the flywheel. In that location you have to turn the allen key so it can mesh with the flywheel. :thumbs:

 

[CherryVimto]

Thanks DOH.

I only want to change the crank pulley, but I obviously need lock everything as if I am actually changing the belt..

 

[DOH]

To clarify, my method works for changing the crank pulley only as well as the cambelt.
Unusually my crank Pulley didn't have the 2 x 8mm threaded holes to use to remove the pulley. As a consequence,I had to use a 3 leg puller with the 3 legs turned around to get mine off, pulling on the inside diameter of the pulley. It was tight as it had been loctited on when the Ford Dealership previously did the cam belt before I owned the car.
Btw , the 6mm allen key trick is a trade secret , you will not find this useful tip elsewhere on the internet. :thumbs:

 

[st220kyle]

Forgive my stupidity if I've misunderstood but if your only removing the pulley and not touching the timing belt, do you need to lock anything?

 

[CherryVimto]

Yes, because the crank is free to move. Not much of a problem you would think.. but, as I have learned (typically after I pulled the pulley from my spare engine) the crank pulley and the bottom sprocket that the cambelt runs round, are NOT attached/keyed to the crank. So if the crank moves the sprocket actually stays put and the pistons will be at a different position relative to the cams, essentially de-timing the engine.

Hence why the bottom crank pulley bolt is so damn tight.. it has to hold the pulley and the cambelt sprocket tight against the crankshaft.. the 'tightness' of the crank bolt basically squashes it all together so it all turns at the same time.

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Tony
The special tool actually bolts to the crank pulley with M8 bolts and has an arm coming off the crank about 12-15". When you re-do the timing belt etc install the crank pulley so the special tool is facing forward in a horizontal position and then put the end of the special tool on an axle stand so you have all the weight of the car to torque against.... and you need it. This way you can achieve the 40NM +90 deg with a long bar and a 4ft scaffold pole (it really is that tight!).
There are some photos of the special tools in use on my build thread and it worked for me. Unfortunately it was 6 years ago now so even with the low mileage it's probably due again.

 

[CherryVimto]

I just fail to see what purpose the special tools have.
Ok it is used to hold the crank pulley static while you do up the bolt, but what stops the actual crank for turning within the pulley... nothing from what I can see.. apart from the crank locating pin which apparently isn't strong enough to withstand the forces required to get the 40Nm + 90 degs.

 

[DOH]

You will bend the crank pin torquing it up to 40m + 90 deg and once that happens you will be in the sh*t because you won't be able to unscrew the bent crank pin, as a minimum you would have to remove the sump and try and cut the pin off inside the block!.
However as explained earlier use the 6mm allen key . The flywheel is attached to the crankshaft and by using my method the crank cannot move .
However the timing belt crank shaft timing gear will still move. So you need to use the 38mm timing pin in the hole and the flat plate across the cams to keep everything timed up.

Caution : On this engine only rotate the bottom pulley clockwise because if you rotate anticlockwise I have seen the timing belt jump a tooth.

So I recommend you insert the 38mm pin in the hole , then insert the 6mm allen key in the flywheel in either of the 2 possible locations mentioned earlier. Then back off the 38mm pin and ensure the allen key trick has locked everything . Provided nothing can move ( clue try turning the crank pulley with a 18mm/19mm spanner) then try and insert the flat plate across the cams , if it won't go in you might have to rotate the engine 1 revolution . Then try and insert the plate.
Once that is all good you can if you wan't whilst initially loosening the Crank bolt off the initial 90 deg. That 90 deg is determined by marking the bolt first with Tippex.

Now you only have 40nm torque on the bolt so reinsert the cam plate. The crank is still locked however without the plate inserted the belt tensioner would cause everything to move once you take the pressure off the crankshaft bolt, because there is no keyway on either the serpentine pulley you are changing or the pulley slid onto the crankshaft that the timing belt goes around.
If you follow my advice to the letter all will work out for you just fine.

 

[tuonokid]

Paul mate You don't use the timing pin to hold the crank in position you just use the crankshaft holder. Think about this, as the pulley bolt is tightening it's shank is trying to turn the crank pulley, not the crankshaft. I shouldn't have to explain this anymore as it is what Ford tells you to do and it's worked for me and I can see why. If you use a flywheel locking tool you are actually trying to twist the crank along it's length whilst tightening up the crank pulley which is probably why Ford don't recommend it. For anybody reading this just follow Ford TIS and you will be alright.

 

[DOH]

Hi Barry
Thankyou for your input . My thoughts on your comments are as follows:

I agree in the first instance with

as the pulley bolt is tightening it's shank is trying to turn the crank pulley, not the crankshaft

However by the time you have the initial 40nm torque applied , then the crank pulley , crank timing gears and the crank itself are then interlocked. At that stage using the tool you have or locking the flywheel at the other end with the 6mm allen key makes no difference.

In actual fact I strongly believe locking the flywheel is less detrimental because the diameter of the boss on the other end of the crankshaft that the flywheel fits to is a larger diameter than that of the nose that the Front Pulley bolt is screwed into.

Most people aren't fortunate to have access to that special tool you have. to use with the engine in situ.

Chris at Allison Automotive uses a Sykes Pickavant flywheel locking tool whilst the engine is out , which meshes with the teeth and serves the identical purpose as the 6mm allen key.

However unless you split the engine from the Gearbox , involving a lot of unnecessary work, you can't use the flywheel locking tool with the engine in situ , that is why the tool you use was made.

Using the 6mm allen key locks the engine in 2 minutes flat, is in most peoples tool kit and correctly inserted there is no chance of anything moving , whereas your tool could come off the axle stand, if something slipped or fractured.

Furthermore your tool wouldn't have worked on my bottom pulley as the 2 holes that it fits into were not present.
That replacement front Pulley was fitted in Fords workshop and the only way they could have tightened it to 40 nm +90 deg would have been by locking the flywheel.

The gearbox was not removed at the time and the engine does not have a bent crankshaft and has covered more than double your Puma's engines mileage since it was changed . So hopefully that is sufficient proof and reassurance that nothing detrimental happened to my crankshaft by locking the flywheel to tighten the front crankshaft pulley bolt?

I believe incidentally that Yamaha/ Ford assembling the engine would have used the Flywheel locking tool method to torque the bolt instead of your special tool. Because engines are built on a bench or engine stand in the factory.

Chris from Allison Automotive told me when I spoke to him that when working on the FRP's & other Pumas that he has always pulled the engine out to do engine work including a cam belt change.

As far as I am aware, he hasn't reported any issues by locking the flywheel to date either.

We are all here to help each other and pass on tips and our experiences when working on the Puma, so that they can stay on the road as long as possible but at the same time keeping the driving experience affordable.

 

[st220kyle]

Yes, because the crank is free to move. Not much of a problem you would think.. but, as I have learned (typically after I pulled the pulley from my spare engine) the crank pulley and the bottom sprocket that the cambelt runs round, are NOT attached/keyed to the crank. So if the crank moves the sprocket actually stays put and the pistons will be at a different position relative to the cams, essentially de-timing the engine.

Hence why the bottom crank pulley bolt is so damn tight.. it has to hold the pulley and the cambelt sprocket tight against the crankshaft.. the 'tightness' of the crank bolt basically squashes it all together so it all turns at the same time.

Good job your doing it then and not me, As this is something I wouldn't of realised!

 

[grogee]

Without wishing to poke this hornet's nest again... Does anyone know where I can get the cam locking tool from? Sounds like if I've got a 6mm Allen key and a big bar/19mm socket then I've got all I need to change the belt (and idler, and water pump).

Does anyone have a preference for brand eg Gates or Dayco? AFAIK Gates is (or was) the OEM supplier to Ford.

 

[DOH]

The cam locking tool can be purchased from ebay for approx £8 and works fine.

 

[DOH]

Gates is OEM for many manufacturers not just Ford. Gates is the only belt that is actually tested on all of the engines that they make the belts for. So is always my first choice. I have used Dayco on French engines though without problems .
In this case The Gates belt 1.7 full Kit was the cheapest from RTG on ebay and is a genuine Gates kit not a copy.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gates-Timing-Cam-Belt-Kit-Fits-Ford-Puma-1997-2002-1-7-7MO/173328664667?epid=28016627667&hash=item285b31885b:g:L0sAAOSwEmFaqj2M

Ideally you also need an E14 socket for the inlet cam , although I have also used a good tight fitting 9/16" socket to undo and torque up that inlet cam bolt , 18mm , 10mm , 15mm or 16mm for engine mount nuts 8mm sockets, Deep 13mm socket with various lengths of extensions both 3/8th drive and 1/2" drive , 13mm ring spanner.
Torque Wrench , Typpex .

 

[tuonokid]

Hi Guys
All I can say is there is NO cam locking tool. There are spanner flats near the cam pulley end of the camshafts to hold the cams steady and a cam timing tool that holds the cams in the right position but you must position the cams with the timning tool and then take it out before you start to tighten the cams as you wiull break off the ends that engage in the cam timing tool. Ford TIS is absolutely correct if you think you are a better mechanic than Ford go for it. It won't end well!

 

[DOH]

Hi
The part that you require for timing the cams is described on ebay as a Cam locking tool, although agreed TIS may refer to it by a different name . In reallity it amounts to the same tool as the following:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Zetec-Timing-Camshaft-Locking-TooL-Kit-Mazda-Volvo-1-2-1-4-1-6-1-8-2-3-16v/262369218895?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Barry is correct on his advice above with regard to how easy it is to break the ends of the cams off.

This task is really involved and should be left to a competent mechanic, who ideally that has done a 1.7 Puma engine previously.

The Ford Dealership did my previous cambelt change and they did it wrong as it was out on the inlet cam's timing by 5-10 degrees!

Yet they are supposed to be familiar with the engine and supposedly using TIS . The reality is it was probably given to a trainee 16-20 year old in the workshop to replace the cambelt.

In view of your struggles to solve basic tasks such as sealing off a leaking exhaust manifold gasket and then ordering the wrong sized nuts, despite my warnings to check what size they are first , I would strongly recommend you do not tackle this task.

Feel free to do all the other jobs on your car and I am happy to advise you, whenever you ask for it.

Barry is right in the fact that you really need to know what you are doing, as if you get it wrong, you will do extensive damage to your engine and end up scrapping the car.

 

[grogee]

Thanks for all the input chaps. This pretty much confirms my prejudices:.

"This task is really involved and should be left to a competent mechanic, who ideally that has done a 1.7 Puma engine previously.

The Ford Dealership did my previous cambelt change and they did it wrong as it was out on the inlet cam's timing by 5-10 degrees!"

So what you're saying is use a competent mechanic but not a Ford mechanic with access to all the correct tools and information!

I don't trust anyone to do this for me. I've done quite a few cam belts before and feel confident I can tackle the Puma, especially with all the helpful pointers on this forum (eg 6mm Allen key to lock flywheel). Time is also on my side as I'll be taking it slow and taking pics as I go.

With jobs like this I generally make a note of the fastener head size and where it goes to make reassembly easier.

 

[grogee]

Wow. Thanks for your confidence in my abilities. I'm not going to get involved in a willy waving contest about what I have and have not achieved. Suffice to say the forum will be updated either with a successfully completed job, or a pile of scrap for sale.

Thanks very much for your advice.

 

[DOH]

Good luck with it . Before starting the strip down order up both camshaft front oil seals and the front crankshaft oil seal and also a new water pump.
It is the right time to change them also if you are due a timing belt. The result will be a oil free engine underneath that then also uses less oil.
Purchase a 310ml Black Granville instant Gasket to reseal the Rocker Cover & a small tube of blue threadlock for the crank bolt.

There have been many people that have failed in the task to do the timing belt & then disappear'd off the forum . I guess scrapping the car.

Read the Article in the "How to" of this site & The Gates Bulletin thoroughly, along with my tips.
I had them both on my phone so I could double check everything as I went along.
I converted from the stated NM to lb/ft for the various torque settings on a piece of paper so I would be able to use my lb/ft torque wrench.

You won't be able to undo the Crank bolt with an impact gun. Provided you are very strong then you will crack it with a long power bar and a lot of brute force.



:thumbs: