Vernier pulley on standard cams

[Puma45]

Does anyone know iff there is any benefit to fitting a vernier pulley and advancing your exhaust cam iff you still have standard cams with vct Or is there no point unless youv upgraded you cams?

Wondered iff anyone on here had tryed it, I’d like to know the results or iff there’s no point. Cheers

 

[DOH]

There is no keyway on the cams so after releasing the bolts you can set your cam timing to whatever you wish to try. I would recommend checking and setting to the standard points using the cam aligning tool kit though. As mine was out by 10 degrees when the cam belt was replaced originally at a Ford Dealer!

 

[Puma45]

I’m aware there keyless but iff I was to mess with the timing a would use a vernier pulley just to make it easier and more accurate, I was just wondering iff anyone has messed about with exhaust timing on the standard cams and iff there is any Benefit to advancing or retarding the exhaust and iff so how much by?

 

[DOH]

As an engine builder and someone who has worked on many 1.7 engines including correctly setting the cam timing and also solving many peoples other issues on this site, I am somewhat confused as to why you think using a Vernier pulley would make things easier, please explain your reasoning?

On Standard Cams, Fords would have spent many hours on a dyno testing and trying out different timing settings via Yamaha.
They will have arrived at the best settings and then also then mapped the ECU for the best fuelling compromise i.e economy and Performance.

If you change the cam timing, your fuelling will be out across the rev range , usually then running too rich.

If you want more power consider improving the Gasflow of the Cylinder head, Uprated cams from Kent , Piper or Newman accompanied by a ECU Remap. Something along the lines of what Tickford did when they developed the Racing Puma.

Although Newman lists performance cams for the other Zetec's , they don't list the 1.7. I recommend that you give them a call though.
Here's their current Zetec listing

Here is Kents listing for the 1.7


Providing that your current cam timing is actually correct & everything else is working as it should , the 1.7 is a gem of an engine as is .

It has diesel like low end torque and because of the variable inlet timing, good revability as standard.

What you are proposing .will cost you a lot of money and produce no power or torque gains.

 

[Puma45]

How would you measure the advance and retard without a vernier pulley? With the engine still in the car and no other fancy bits of kit? I know it can be done but surly it’s easier and more accurate with a vernier pulley? I’m changing the cam belt soon anyway so thought I’d might be s good time to stick one one iff they respond to timing changes

Also I have read on a few other forums that the exhaust cam on the racing puma was 6 degrees advanced I know the FRP has uprated cams but there only mild and one of the differences is that the exhaust runs 6 degrees advance so my question is iff it’s only a mild cam in the FRP and Ford/Yamaha advanced the exhaust by 6degrees is there any advantage in advancing the standard cam? Like you say Ford will have done a lot of R&D on the standard puma to make it run smooth, be economical, meet emissions standards so my question is there any bhp to be had by advancing or retarding the exhaust cam on standard cams iff your happy to sacrifice some smooth running maybe a lumpy tick over and maybe higher emissions but a gain in bhp/ torque After all Ford advanced the timing on the FRP but is that just to suite the up rated cams.

Also Iv noticed you can buy just an exhaust vernier pulley suggesting that some playing with exhaust cam timing may yield some results on a dyno? I know some uprated cams required different timing but most spicy cams for these engines do away with vct and only with mild cams can you keep the vct suggesting to me that on mild cams atleast there is some reason to adjust exhaust timing? Begging the question would a slight tweek on a standard cam yield any results power wise?


And last but not least Iv fitted a 4branch and full big bore exhaust system so like you say there is a good chance that the exhaust timing set by Ford is optimum for this engine in standard spec, but with a 4 branch would a different exhaust timing make better use of scavenge effect and free flowing exhaust? Maybe that’s why the FRP is 6 degrees advance because that may well be optimal for a free flowing exhaust with a good 4 branch. Just a thought?

 

[DOH]

I am sorry to disappoint you , your understanding of cam timing is wrong and I am trying to save you wasting your money on items that will yield absolutely no power gains .

If you research this site you will find that many FRP pumas struggle also to pass the emissions test for the MOT because of the mods of the exhaust / and running the FRP.

If you move the Cam timing it will run rich and fail the MOT. Perhaps you don't plan to use on the Road?

There are many that have modified their Pumas for Trackdays , some running FRP spec , Some modified 1.7 almost to FRP spec & also some with Turbos iirc approx 245BHP.

Unless you own your own dyno or rolling road or have someone charging you "mates rates" a remap could be typically £400-600.

The reason the FRP tool is different is to enable the full lift position at the specified crank degrees for that modified cam. So Ford produced a tool so that the need for a dial gauge and crank angle indicator wouldn't be needed by the garage at timing belt change.

Because Peter Beattie knew that The average mechanics in their Main dealership , won't have a clue how to use them properly or even possess them.

I personally spoke to Peter Beattie at Dunton where he kindly did a talk on his development of the FRP. He told me that it was very common place that Ford dealerships set the FRP cam timing incorrectly. because they used the standard zetec tool. They also set the front wheel alignment for the FRP the same as for a Standard Puma. He spent a great deal of time problem solving at dealerships around the UK. All the details of every FRP & issues were in his hand written logbook against the cars registration number.

I have tried to be helpful to you, to save wasting your money and time.
I recommend you either go on a course to study a degree in engine design or work alongside someone who is very experienced in building competition wining engines to understand what works and what doesn't.

 

[caprixpack]

Just to add, newman do offer cams for the 1.7. I've bought a set of their ph2 cams, essentially a fast road cam thats a bit fruitier than the frp cams.

 

[Puma45]

So why do they sell the vernier pulleys then? Iff it upset emissions you could put the timing back standard for the test or get a bent mot on it?

I don’t care about emissions iff I’m honest I would just do as Iv just mentioned above to get it through the mot, I’d rather it not mess up MPG but I could stand to it dropping slightly I’m guessing it would idle rough too? Somthing I also don’t care about

Iff it makes the car run rich can’t that be put right with a map? I plan on getting the car mapped one day anyway would a timing alteration be beneficial along side a custom map?

And so on the engines you build you just set the cams to recommended factory settings? Is There not a performance aspect to changing the cam timing even iff it costs you in emissions and fuel economy? My puma is a road car but I am into banger racing and got freinds into stock car racing and there are plenty of engines out there that benefit with a timing tweek even on a standard cams to get more power out of it, I just wondered iff the same applied to these engines. Maybe not lol

 

[Puma45]

Iv been looking at piper fast road cams but they’re abit pricey, they do a re grind at a decent price but iff it means re shimming the lifters then its not worth it.
How much are the ph2 Newman cams?

Cams are on the wish list for one day in the future

 

[caprixpack]

Iv been looking at piper fast road cams but they’re abit pricey, they do a re grind at a decent price but iff it means re shimming the lifters then its not worth it.
How much are the ph2 Newman cams?

Cams are on the wish list for one day in the future

Getting on for £600, prices went up recently. I bought mine last year for £480.

 

[Puma45]

Getting on for £600, prices went up recently. I bought mine last year for £480.

One day I might fork out but that’s abit out my price range at the moment, that’s what made me wonder iff a vernier pulley and slightly altered timing had any performance benefit on standard cams just as a cheaper alternative for the time been, seems like I may have been wrong lol still begs the question why they sell em