Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

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Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:56 pm

Hi all, ive decided to put my project up here, yes, its another turbod puma, but hopefully for less then anybody has ever done 1!! Ok, before i tell you how much i have budgeted for it, id like some responses as to how much you all think it will cost, including buying the puma, Y reg, and a turbo set up, along with full exhaust system, and rebuilt engine with low compression (as its low budget, its going to be a decompression plate, for 2 reasons, 1, its alot cheaper then low comp pistons, and also, you actually loose engine capacity if you use low comp pistons, as they takes volume away from the cylinders, and add it to the combustion chamber, where as a decompression plate just adds to the combustion volume, while keeping the cylinders the same).Im going to keep standard ECU (Well it has a racing puma map on it) and use an FMU (like a power boost valve, but adjusts the fuel rail pressure at multiples of the manifold pressures).Also full stainless cat back (Miltek), Gmax suspension all round, shocks and springs, cosworth brakes on the front. Im doing all the work myself, so no labour costs, just my blood sweat and tears! Ill upload pictures as soon as i get access to my laptop! I already have all the bits, and the car, im just taking the engine out, then take the head for skimming, porting, and polishing!
All thoughts and ideas welcome, im not going for massive power here, just a fast, while still reliable car.
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:59 pm

First! Nice mate where abouts you from? Cant wait to see the pics and keep informed on this please please keep up with this thread as i feel alot of interest surrounds this subject! the ultimate of puma tuning!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by lucy » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:23 pm

pics will be good on this project.... only thing i can think when someone says "turbo" and "budget" is baaad. my motto has always been buy cheap buy twice.

be good to be proved wrong tho!!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaJay » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:24 pm

ooops sorry that was me posting not lucy
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:28 pm

Thanks mate, im from B'ham. Yeah, there always seems to be alot of interest surrounding forced induction, but people are put off by the cost, so hopefully im going to show that it can be done for a VERY low price! Im not going to be 1 of those people who say theyre going to do it, then dont! Ive brought all the bits i need, and am already in the process of doing it. Hopefully it will be 2 weeks from now when its finished! Ill hopefully be able to show what power you can go up to without spending big bucks, what amount of boost an engine can safely take, and ill have links of where you can get it! Oh, and i have a spare 32k engine to use if/when anything goes wrong. Also ill be more then happy to help any1 local out with some of the trickier bits!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:34 pm

what turbo have you and is it new what car has it derived from or is this a secret!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:34 pm

Yeah, i know what your saying mate, but if you take into account the physics of any engine, and look at what your actually paying for, you actually pay alot for things that shouldnt necciserilly cost alot. The racing puma, with all standard internals can be modified to over 200bhp, and is exactly the same engine as the 1.7 123bhp engine, so theoretically, you should safely be able to get 200bhp out of the engine! The de compression plate should work, because if you use 1.4, or 1.6 head bolts, they are 2mm longer then the puma 1.7 bolts, so you can use them, and the structural stability should be as good! You just need to machine the heads a little!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:39 pm

No, no secrets, ill tell you everything you want to know, im fed up of people doing things, and not wanting other people to do it, so they dont tell anything! Its a garret T25 turbo off a saab 9000 turbo, and its a refurbed model. Im not spending big on this, because i want to see what i can get max out of it, but if it blows up, i dont mind, i have a spare engine!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:47 pm

log into the chat!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:00 am

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Here are some images of the blown engine, put a con rod through cylinder 4, and went through the front, back, and through the starter motor too! And also a pic of my engine bay with no engine in!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by haGGard » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm

This looks like a good thread, i'll be keeping my eye on this, looks like you've done your research. I've always associated turbo's with 'money pits' not cheap. I take it from what you wrote about your going to be turboing the 1.7 puma engine. Not a 1.6?
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:30 pm

Yes, its the 1.7, although the 1.6 could possibly be a better base model, as the cylinder walls are thicker. I chose the 1.7, because its the fastest of the zetec SE engines as standard, and the nikasil lined cylinders should be strong enough to take some boost! And i just love the way the VCT drives. Also, although people have rebuilt 1.6 engines before, ive read in a few places that once youve taken the con rod bolts out of it, its scrap, thats why you cant find torque settings for conrod or big end bolts anywhere. I have managed to source some, but the 1.7 can be rebuilt, i got HD conrod bolts from shawspeed, cost me £100, i looked everywhere to find them, even tried ARP direct, but to no avail, but shawspeed were really good!
Im not promising this will actually work, but at leaste ill be able to show you what the limitations of the engine are, and if its possible to do it on a small budget, ill do it!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:34 pm

Oh, and i was wrong about the low compression pistons, they dont decrease the size of the cylinder, i was thinking about it today, because the dip in the top of the piston, takes away from the cylinder when its at the top of its stroke, but then its added on at the bottom of the stroke, so my mistake!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:01 pm

they are however an expensive alternative.
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:16 pm

Will you not need an ignition retarder if you are using an fmu?
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:26 pm

how will you get round the torque limiter :D
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:54 pm

Ive looked into retarding the ignition, but unless i was going for major power, i dont think the engine requires it. Vanaaken do a turbo kit, that safely pushes 5psi through the standard compression 1.6 zetec engine, at 11:1 iirc, and its pretty much the same engine as the 1.7. Retarding the ignition is really only to stop detonation while on boost, but if the 1.6 can take 5psi safely with no intercooler, and high compression, then i think my compression, which is going to be 8.5:1, with a big front mount intercooler, then i dont see any reason that it would need retarding. Its a good point though, and if it requires it, the megajolt unit seems to work well with the ford EDIS unit, and will work directly with the ford crank and crank sensor, so i think that will be the way to go if it does require it, but at the moment, im only hoping to boost to a max of 10psi, and that amount of boost should produce good results with the set up im going for.
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:05 pm

And about the torque limiter, if you look at the 1st thread (sorry, i know there was alot to read), it does say the puma i have has a racing puma map on it, so it wont be an issue for this project, however, with the power im hoping to produce, this is my biggest worry!! The standard IB5 box on the Puma is the weakest link, even the 155bhp Racing Puma has shot peened gears, and im hoping (the optimum word being "hoping") to surpass that figure, so if anything is going to go wrong, it may be the gearbox or driveshafts! And for this reason, i think for 1st gear, its a good idea to KEEP the torque limiter! Although a friend of mine who builds race engines has assured me that the drive shafts and standard gearbox, aswell as standard internals of the 1.7 engine are good to around 200bhp, and im not going to get to that figure, so there shouldnt be an issue.
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:29 pm

check out my new signature pal!!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by Fury556 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:18 am

Good stuff :)

I'm considering a Supercharger when i get some money together and my Brother is more than happy to help build an F/I engine with me! In regards to engine management i'm trying to find one to keep the VCT as it seems a waste to lose it and most managements wont support it - do you think the setup you are going for would work just as well with a S/C? I'm also going to be budgeteering to the max and getting used gear and refurbing whatever could go wrong!
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:29 am

Yeah, if the system works for me, it will work for you. I brought an Eaton M45 from a mini to put on mine, that was the 1st option, as a supercharger is better then a turbo in my opinion, as there is no lag, and as you can use the 4-2-1 manifold, the air flowing through the engine is better, so the boost created will create more power, its just that the only place i could find to mount it, was to replace the A/C compressor, and didnt really want to loose that, also, the only way i could regulate the boost was changing the pulley size. I think it really depends what kind of power your going for, if you get an FMU, that should sort the fuelling out, and if you keep the standard map on your ecu, the ignition timing is slightly retarded, so your less likely to get detonation, its up to you if you want to lower the compression or not, you dont necciserily have to, as you do loose a bit of power doing so, but its safer. Also, the way a supercharger works, you dont need an intercooler, although again, you can run more boost if you do.
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by PumaNoob » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:47 am

You also need to look at what choice of charger you want, the eaton m45 maxes out at 10psi (about 0.7 bar) at about 14000rpm iirc. Depending how much boost you wanted, youd have to look at it like this:
1400 = 1psi
2800 = 2psi
4200 = 3psi
5600 = 4psi
7000 = 5psi
8400 = 6psi
9800 = 7psi
11200 = 8psi
12600 = 9psi
14000 = 10psi

so if you want to go for 8psi, you need to look at your car and the max revs you want to go with a S/C is about 6500, so i think your crank size is 130mm (could be wrong) so in order to get 8psi at 6500rpm, youd need a pulley size of 75.44mm, or about 75mm would be close enough! But the standard pulley is 70mm, so you can see how it can be tricky, unless you you can get a custom pulley made up?

There are bypass valves available, but they are only abailable for certain models, and arent cheap!

If you want to go aftermarket management, you can go with either Omex or Emerald, both of these are capable of running the VCT effectively.
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:40 am

Think i heard once omex is on an ecu it can never be overwritten with any other map. please bare this in mind :)
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by djsounds02 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:41 am

why would it be hard to get a pulley that size?
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Re: Budget Puma TURBO Project!!

Post by Fury556 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:59 am

Thanks for all the info - as far as i could see Omex wouldn't support VCT, which model does? Omex would be preferred as my Brothers Dad is very well experienced in mapping race cars using Omex managament. Not to mention he suggested that mapping for S/C's is much easier as its a more linear power delivery as opposed to Turbos with varying boost levels/RPMs etc. The power we are aiming to achieve on all standard bits is something like 170-190bhp which would make the Puma very hard to catch. We also are thinking of using an Eaton M45 or the charger from a Golf G60 as we know someone who deals in performance VW parts. I can do without A/C for the sake of a S/C so that shouldn't be too much of a problem!
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