Electric Supercharger idea

[FireFly90]

I've been doing some research into superchargers when i came across some electric ones of eBay that just bolt onto the existing air intake as a cheap way to provide forced induction. However further reading up on them show that they have absolutely no meaningful effect what so ever, they are effectively glorified ventilation fans.

Centrifugal superchargers use drive from aux belt and then through a small gear box to drive the impeller in the housing.

So what if instead of using a belt pulley to power it, why not an electric motor? Obviously it would have to be powerful enough to drive it and may even require its own speed controller and battery source to power it. But it would mean you wouldn't have to try and source a larger belt or worry about where to mount it in line with the aux belt.

I might even use this idea as a basis for a university project if i don't get to the the project i want to do.

Thoughts?

 

[martinthrapston]

How much it is give the money to me,will be much better spent lol,why not buy 1 of the eBay special chips that also increase bhp by an extra 10 ,money would be better spent on servicing car

 

[gingerdave]

You will get a bigger gain by leaving your spare wheel at home.They are complete crap.

 

[FireFly90]

I agree that the eBay specials will not make any difference, and I'm sure there are more cost effective ways for releasing power from our engines. Has anyone fitted a centrifugal supercharger to their Puma in the conventional belt method?

 

[XIIVVX]

There is no doubt that supercharging is a very sensible way of adding power and economy at the same time.

Compare the standard and DIG-S Nissan Micra and see the gains in both areas from the intelligent use of supercharger technology.

The idea of an electric supercharger is interesting as increasingly designers are turning to power sources that don't directly sap engine power (see the widespread replacement of hydraulic power steering with electric)

I guess somebody will try it one day.

 

[r00x]

Well... it wouldn't not work, it would just be extremely unpractical to achieve.

A supercharger robs your engine of a lot of power to do it's job. They are nothing like these eBay fans which people are trying to clip on to their air intakes. They are extremely powerful high-pressure air-forcing machines and they run directly off the engine because they need a lot of power to do this.

You wouldn't just need any electric motor. You'd need some gigantic brushless behemoth of a motor squatting in your engine bay with cabling thicker than your thumbs to power it and expensive electronic speed controllers to match its current capacity. You would also need a bloody great big alternator or three because if you didn't, the moment you turn it on the voltage would drop and engine would die on the spot with no power to the ECU or coil pack. :lol:

This also means that, one way or another, you're still using engine power to run that supercharger, it's just coming from alternators instead of a belt drive (and arguably is less efficient now with all these extra steps). There's no avoiding using the engine in some way, the power requirements are just too large, unless you have an enormous pack of batteries in the boot, but then you'll flatten those on your way to work :lol:

I fully encourage experimentation in that direction (why not, it's very interesting!) but beware of what you're getting into!

 

[XIIVVX]

^^^ Good post ^^^

 

[r00x]

Thank you! There is a counterpoint to my own post, which I would like to add as well.

If you weren't after massive gains but perhaps just a small improvement in performance (and we are talking small, if it works at all), I think there are a few less-insane options that could be explored.

Instead of creating positive pressure in the engine like a proper supercharger, this might just slightly decrease the typical vacuum found inside NA engines and raise your volumetric efficiency a bit higher. But that alone might be worth it, and perhaps the (tiny) difference would be noticeable...

In short, I'm wondering if you couldn't bolt a high-powered brushless ducted-fan motor to the air intake. This comprises a very high-RPM motor and fan assembly which is designed to force high-pressure air very quickly in one direction, usually to produce thrust. As a result they are very high static pressure (the kind of thing you want in a supercharging application) and nothing like the crappy eBay fans. This is what you need. Superchargers (and turbos) don't "blow" air into the engine so much as compress and force it - squeeze it - into the cylinders. The nearest you can probably get off-the-shelf which would compress air at high volume, is going to be ducted fans (and these will still be a long way off as they are not compressors, but still, probably your best chance).

They are relatively new in terms of tech because such powerful and small motors have not been around for very long. It's only been the last 4-5 years they've really taken off - quite literally, as they are used in remote controlled model aircraft! :lol:

Unlike the crappy eBay fans, RC ducted fans can provide some fairly serious power. I've seen someone propel themselves down a street on skates with a large pair of these strapped to their arse. can't seem to find the video now, so here's a similar one with a nutter on a bicycle:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDVcecoC_f0[/youtube]

They CAN be powered by low voltage systems and they CAN be run from batteries and they DON'T require extremely expensive ESCs (though they're still pricey), and this is by design. They wouldn't be able to match a proper supercharger - not even close - but I find it hard to believe they wouldn't make some sort of small difference, and as far as I know, nobody has tried this, ever.

Maybe you'd get an extra horsepower or two :-D

 

[FireFly90]

Thank you! There is a counterpoint to my own post, which I would like to add as well.

If you weren't after massive gains but perhaps just a small improvement in performance (and we are talking small, if it works at all), I think there are a few less-insane options that could be explored.

Instead of creating positive pressure in the engine like a proper supercharger, this might just slightly decrease the typical vacuum found inside NA engines and raise your volumetric efficiency a bit higher. But that alone might be worth it, and perhaps the (tiny) difference would be noticeable...

In short, I'm wondering if you couldn't bolt a high-powered brushless ducted-fan motor to the air intake. This comprises a very high-RPM motor and fan assembly which is designed to force high-pressure air very quickly in one direction, usually to produce thrust. As a result they are very high static pressure (the kind of thing you want in a supercharging application) and nothing like the crappy eBay fans. This is what you need. Superchargers (and turbos) don't "blow" air into the engine so much as compress and force it - squeeze it - into the cylinders. The nearest you can probably get off-the-shelf which would compress air at high volume, is going to be ducted fans (and these will still be a long way off as they are not compressors, but still, probably your best chance).

They are relatively new in terms of tech because such powerful and small motors have not been around for very long. It's only been the last 4-5 years they've really taken off - quite literally, as they are used in remote controlled model aircraft! :lol:

Unlike the crappy eBay fans, RC ducted fans can provide some fairly serious power. I've seen someone propel themselves down a street on skates with a large pair of these strapped to their arse. can't seem to find the video now, so here's a similar one with a nutter on a bicycle:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDVcecoC_f0[/youtube]

They CAN be powered by low voltage systems and they CAN be run from batteries and they DON'T require extremely expensive ESCs (though they're still pricey), and this is by design. They wouldn't be able to match a proper supercharger - not even close - but I find it hard to believe they wouldn't make some sort of small difference, and as far as I know, nobody has tried this, ever.

Maybe you'd get an extra horsepower or two :-D

Hmmm, Ducted Fans did cross my train of thought when thinking about the fans off eBay, for a while when i was young i did dream about this one model aircraft with a ducted fan on top of the wing & fuselage. I'd have to do a bit more research into the motors, fans and amount of thrust they provide but it could be an idea :thumbs:

As for a Uni project tho my head lecturer said it may not be the most feasible project ever, so i'm thinking instead of designing an aero package based on the Puma model.

 

[evilrob]

Dyson Digital Motor?

More info:
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/design/power/dyson-vacuums-104000rpm-brushless-dc-technology-2009-06/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evilrob]

Or one of these:

[/spaceballs_reference]

 

[r00x]

Blowers have been tried before - there were small improvements but of course those are rather unwieldy things to cram into your engine bay.

Apparently Audi are working on this exact sort of thing (electric turbocharging) with excellent results: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/audi-reveals-electric-turbocharger-technology

Also check out these guys: http://www.aeristech.co.uk/

Both the above links seem to be about using this tech for reducing the lag in an existing turbo system (i.e. there is a mechanical turbo too, but this electric system is there for when that big old thing is still spooling up). So presumably more about giving power when pulling away rather than full-throttle racing.

Even so, I'd be happy with that. More power when accelerating from the lights... yes please :lol:

 

[3dcandy]

Merc are doing loads of intresting stuff with hydraulic coupled superchargers too, so you get extra grunt low down and then it's hydraulically decoupled higher up the revs range

 

[cj2013]

it's possibly the definition of a waste of time to look into this tbh.consider the two existing methods:

turbocharging: force is created by waste energy, no detrimental loads on engine. no negative pump work on intake stroke. requires uprated internals for reliable worthwhile applications

belt supercharger: driven off aux belt, instant delivery matched to engine speed. no neg pump work, and a per above requires uprated internals.


what advantage does any electric "supercharger" have? turbos are free power technically, so you can't beat that side.

any energy has to be converted, and an alternator isn't all that efficient so you'd have to consider that you'd be denying your "system" of all the advantages of existing systems whilst creating a less efficient solution with perhaps unpredictable delivery.

 

[RICHARD MANSFIELD2]

Hi,
I came across this, looks just the job. The videos just have to watched. http://www.ebay.com/itm/F1-Z-Universal-Turbo-Air-Intake-Dual-Fan-Turbonator-with-Propeller-Blue/251392654463?_trksid=p2045573.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D298%26meid%3D3322591953480301891%26pid%3D100034%26prg%3D1079%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D350948993449%26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Regards
Richard Mansfield

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

what advantage does any electric "supercharger" have? turbos are free power technically, so you can't beat that side.

You are forgetting a severe back pressure. Supercharger blowing with 0,5 bar is MUCH better then turbo doing same 0,5 bar….

If you are electrifying a supercharger it gives you LOTS of new options and possibilities. For starts, you could ADVANCE it building pressure to have instant response. You could slow it down or speed up as wanted; you could run it at constant speed regardless of engine speed.
Also, you can run it free as well; if you harvest energy while coasting to a halt or braking and then store it for latter use...

Finally, you can place it ANYWHERE you want in engine bay, even on top of your engine if needed; it doesn't have to be on axis with crankshaft etc.

These were first ideas that sprang to my mind, but you can see why it could be beneficial.

 

[cj2013]

You are forgetting a severe back pressure. Supercharger blowing with 0,5 bar is MUCH better then turbo doing same 0,5 bar….

That's not really a constructive argument, as back pressure behind the turbo is beneficial. Turbocharger velocity is based on a pressure difference pre and post turbo. More pre turbo back pressure equals quicker spooling (very simplistically).

You need to be referring to the back pressure post turbo, i.e. between turbocharger exit and tailpipe. This is the back pressure that requires minimalisation and is linked to system efficiency, the quicker the gases can bugger off from here the better. This is where you can think about adding a screamer pipe :wink:

Comparing the two systems as you have is as logical as saying "a petrol engine is much better than a diesel engine".

If you are electrifying a supercharger it gives you LOTS of new options and possibilities. For starts, you could ADVANCE it building pressure to have instant response. You could slow it down or speed up as wanted; you could run it at constant speed regardless of engine speed.
Also, you can run it free as well; if you harvest energy while coasting to a halt or braking and then store it for latter use...

Finally, you can place it ANYWHERE you want in engine bay, even on top of your engine if needed; it doesn't have to be on axis with crankshaft etc.

These were first ideas that sprang to my mind, but you can see why it could be beneficial.

I'm not fully sure why people put emphasis on certain words with capitals, so the context is lost on me if it is intended.

There are obvious advantages to having something that is electric rather than mechanical, but unless alternator technology improves or super strong low power electric motors are made small enough then there wouldn't be a benefit to the concept right now.

KERS is good as it takes otherwise wasted energy and utilises it, as does a turbo, but energy doesn't come from nowhere and with an electric supercharger requiring a power source from the engine you would have an effect not too dissimilar, but perhaps worse due to current technology, whereby the power source would be quite a large load and would have a big scavenging effect on the engine.

As with most things, we'll probably sooner see mainstream electric vehicles before this.

 

[Wild E. Coyote]

As with most things, we'll probably sooner see mainstream electric vehicles before this.

No argument there. I agree 100%