FRP Duratec Turbo Project!

[moondustka]

Was one of the KA's purple?? I remember seeing a ridiculously quick purple ka with an RS engine in it, I think that was one of the cars I got my inspiration from!!

I anticipated possible cooling issues, so ive fitted a focus RS rad, it's bigger and thicker then the puma rad, and my intercooler is a vauxhall frontera slightly modified. It's got a large surface area, but it quite thin, very similar to the RS500 cooler, the universal ones are ok, but not as efficient in my opinion because they only have a small surface area for the cold air to contact. The more of the cooler the cold air can touch, the cooler the charge should be, as long as the flow capacity is enough.

Did you go down Santa Pod end of last summer, some mates of mine went down and told me about a black puma and another 1 that were tearing it up and nothing could touch them, I tried to find out who it was, but nobody knew! What turbo are you running and what size injectors, and are you running the FRS box or a something else?

My brother's is a purpley blue one yea.

Haven't been to Santa Pod in a couple of years! I last went there with a CVH turbo in my Ka and 175bhp - did a 14.2

Univsersal inetcoolers and many manufacturers ones aren't very good cores. They're a simple bar and plate design and don't have the same sort of turbulators that the more expensive ones do.

Does the FRS rad pretty much fit straight in?

Currently I've got a Turbo Technics Hybrid, FRS injectors running at 65%. The gearbox is little interesting. It's IB5 - Front half of the box is Ka to use starter round the back, back half is puma to retain original mount. Box was fully re-built 2-3 years ago (i swapped the rear half when i went to a puma) with a Quaife ATB diff, Fiesta ST150 1-4th and Ka 5th.
I've got an AP clutch that was new out when i bought end of 2010. Ap didn't have a rating for it. It's a single plate, material is half way between cera-metallic and organic. Has been fine, touch wood, but no one really knows what power it can take!

One thing not to overlook is the need for the air filter to be in the coldest place possible, and to make sure it can only take in fresh cold air. I think you got this covered though!

What 'box are you running?

 

[PumaNoob]

Yes, I definitely know your brothers car, there can't be many bluey-purple ka's around with RS engines in them!

Ok you've looked into the whole intercooler thing a lot more then I have, I've not looked at the turbulence thing, just flow capacity and cold air contact, I'll have to look deeper into that one!! Would you believe I'm running almost exactly the same box you are lol. I made my box out of a fiesta ST box casing and 1-4th fiesta ST gears, and a fiesta 1.4 5th gear, which I believe may be the same as a ka 5th! But I'm using a Tran -x LSD, & I've converted to cable shift! I'm using a HELIX 5 paddle cerametalic clutch plate and updated helix pressure plate, they've been run in supercharged ST at 400+ bhp I'm told with no problems. I'm glad you're running the same gears I am, I know they will take decent power, I'm not looking for the power you have, not yet anyway!! It's interesting that you are running focus RS injectors, they are 440cc if I remember correctly, but I was told they would max out around 300bhp, but you have them running nearly that at only 65% duty cycle. Again, I'm chuffed, because I've modded my fuel rail to accept Focus RS MK2 injectors which are 450cc @ 3 bar, I think closer to 490 @ 3.5, so they should easily flow enough for the power I think I'll get.

With regards to the Focus RS rad, a little tweaking needs to be done to the mounting points, and it's a tight fit, but it pretty much just sits in snug behind the fan. I've not fixed it anywhere, it fits nicely between the headlights, and there's no movement what so ever in it. It also has the pipe outlets in almost exactly the same place as the puma, so plumbing it into the puma or duratec engine is like plumbing in a stock rad, the pipes are all the same size too.

Yeah, your 100% on the money with the air filter, that's why I opted to keep the stock air box, which surprised a few people, but it's enclosed, and has 2 feeds into it from the front grill and the wheel arch. I've maintained the 3" turbo inlet size throughout the intake pipe, only other thing I might look at is heat wrapping that too, because it's aluminium, ideally I'd have had carbon fibre or silicone, but I'll sort that if it becomes a problem.

 

[PumaNoob]

Another small update. The brake lines i had temporerily fitted on the rears were quite corroded

So phoned Projectpuma's very own "how to" guru "Jacko", and got some very useful info about making my own brake lines. I can highly reccomend his brake line guide, the bits cost me about £30, the hoses from Pumabuild are £70, so a hell of a saving.

Any how, here are some pics, this is everything to build the lines, 2 bulkhead fittings, braided hose, 2 banjo fittings, 2 banjo bolts, some clear heat shrink (optional), and copper washers.

First i put the heat shrink onto the braided hose, this is just my preference, some might not want it, but its a good way to colour code your hoses, not sure if it has any other purpose, i only did it because i like the way it looks!!

Then i fitted a banjo fitting on each end of the hose.

Then i cut it in half, and fitted the bulkhead fitting. I chose to cut the pipes at 500mm so they would follow the route of the original pipes.

And fitted, the pipe fits nicely behind the original clamp on the body to stop it hitting the wheel

And fitted to the caliper.

So brake lines all fitted, next job is bolting the bumpers on until i can get them painted, but ill give the car a run and book it in for an MOT then!

 

[Longyear]

Nicely done!

 

[Ginger Tom]

Looking sweet 8)

 

[moondustka]

You can usually tell the difference between the intercooler cores from the outside. British manufactured cores are rounded on the edges. The bar and plate design is square. They do have fins inside the core but it's not like the tiny turbulators inside the better cores that in theory provide much better flow and cooling due to greater surface area

The reason I have Ka 5th is because it's actually a fair bit longer than the ST one and therefore a better top speed and lower rpm for motorway cruising. I did notice a bad difference between changing from 4th to 5th when I had the cvh turbo in my ka, but the bigger frs engine and bigger, better turbo means it's not so noticeable and the acceleration doesn't slow down

I had my engine mapped at TDI last year, it'll be going again soon after this stage. They reduced my duty cycle, got more power and better fuel economy. They showed me my air/fuel ratio graph and I could see the difference between what i started with and where they got it to end up. It's a smooth 11 all the way up the revs, running a little bit richer at the top on full boost. They told me the injectors would see me to 300hp at the hubs. They also reckoned I lost a lot of power from too small silicone hoses (your boost system is only as large as your smallest diameter hose) and the air filter being cone and well, just in a stupid place!

I can't fit the standard airbox in as it's now where my battery is, so I'm re-locating it in front of the passenger wheel, if it will fit and boxing it in there. Hopefully, this combined with an actuator that actually works will give me the 300 at the hubs I'm so desperately wanting :lol: I'm still skeptical... but my inlet temps would be 55 degrees C on full boost at higher rpm. Just silly really! Closer to ambient and I should be able to make it! We shall see!

Interesting about the FRS rad, probably could have gone down that route, but I'm now embarked on this one so I'll see this through.

Keep up the good work, and like everyone else, can't wait to see it finished and power etc.

P.S. Rally design make braided hoses to length for around £30-35! Just send them a hose with the ends you want and say what length etc.

.. however, not the satisfaction of making your own!

 

[jacko]

yeh but the hose is the cheapest bit! like £8 per metre!

wrap it in tape, hacksaw slowly through, use spanner to tighten fittings....

id def be happy to do that for as many people who want it...and i'd only charge £25! ;-)

 

[PumaNoob]

Nicely done!

Looking sweet 8)

Thanks for the comments guys!!

The reason I have Ka 5th is because it's actually a fair bit longer than the ST one and therefore a better top speed and lower rpm for motorway cruising

Yeah, thats exactly the reason for me using the taller gear, my other car is quite high RPM on the motorway, and quite loud, so i thought it give the taller 5th a try, you dont use it when racing anyway, so its an economy gear!!

They also reckoned I lost a lot of power from too small silicone hoses (your boost system is only as large as your smallest diameter hose)

Very true!! I have tried to explain this concept many times!! But it works both ways, why use 60mm intercooler piping when your turbo outlet is only 50mm??

Keep up the good work, and like everyone else, can't wait to see it finished and power etc.

P.S. Rally design make braided hoses to length for around £30-35! Just send them a hose with the ends you want and say what length etc.

.. however, not the satisfaction of making your own!

Ive never heard of them, but thanks for sharing!! If id have shopped around, i probably could have got the stuff cheaper, but i just ordered from the first place i could find with the right bits. Its a good alternative for people, but im happy with the hoses ive made, and just glad i never paid £70 for them from PB!!

yeh but the hose is the cheapest bit! like £8 per metre!

wrap it in tape, hacksaw slowly through, use spanner to tighten fittings....

id def be happy to do that for as many people who want it...and i'd only charge £25! ;-)

Dont go making promises now, you dont have time for making people brake lines, youve got a v6 puma to build!!

 

[ScubaSteve]

you dont use it when racing anyway, so its an economy gear!!

depends what racing you are doing lol lol, i use 5th all the time on track on any lengthy straight, i have to otherwise id just top out in 4th its essential my 5th is short as it would just stop accelerating lol.

 

[PumaNoob]

depends what racing you are doing lol lol, i use 5th all the time on track on any lengthy straight, i have to otherwise id just top out in 4th its essential my 5th is short as it would just stop accelerating lol.

Thats a fair point, i should have said "I've" never used it racing. The fiesta st 4th gear does 115mph @ 7000rpm, and ive never got anywhere near that on a track because ive never been around a big track, and my cars arent fast enough to go any faster then about 100mph on a 1/4 mile.

That said, if i ever did get to go on a big track (which this build will be more suited to), if i shift at 115 into 5th, it will shift at 4665rpm, so should be enough to have the turbo already spooled up, and at a guess, should be right where peak torque is, so its not like it will be unusable!!

Only real issue i might get is if i shifted too soon, i could get caught out. im not really a track driver anyway, although i do like to try and make my cars capable of track driving!

 

[ScubaSteve]

you are a nice man

 

[VVC MINI]

Looking good mate. You want it geared to about 160mph atleast! Didn't your green puma used to top out about 135?

 

[PumaNoob]

nah, on the dash it went to about 155, the actual numbers only go up to 140, but it went past the numbers on the clock, and hit the odometer reset button :? im not sure what that would be in real terms, the car only has low profile 16" wheels and tyres. Thats fast enough for me, im not really interested in top speeds, not sure how fast my tyres are capable of going without disintegrating!! I just want it so i can cruise at a decent speed without the car being too loud and at a lower rev range.

 

[moondustka]

They also reckoned I lost a lot of power from too small silicone hoses (your boost system is only as large as your smallest diameter hose)

Very true!! I have tried to explain this concept many times!! But it works both ways, why use 60mm intercooler piping when your turbo outlet is only 50mm??

hmm, have to disagree at this point! IMO, your point works for say using 60mm hoses if the intercooler inlet/outlet are only 50mm.. It's pointless.

The turbo however is just a kind of pump. The piping to the inlet of the turbo wants to be around 15% bigger. so e.g. my turbo technics is a 60mm inlet into the compressor, I've over specced and gone for a swelling to 80mm to the filter. The outlet to my turbo is around 45mm ID - so quite small! After that I've swelled to 70mm and keep this size to the inlet manifold.

The bigger the better really, as the turbo will find it easier to flow the volume of air it wants to. I was running mine at 19psi peak in the end to get the 245hp at hubs. They tried 22 to 24 and the turbo was screaming, created a lot of heat and no more power was gained.

Remember, a system that has 70mm piping can flow a larger amount of air at the same pressure as a system that's run in 50mm. Therefore the engine will make more power with the larger piping, so long as the fuelling can keep up

It's really a bit of myth when some people say larger intercooler pipes create more lag, as the time it takes to pressurise the extra space is nano seconds.

When doing a boost system you want to keep 3 things in mind - have it as short as possible, as few bends/harsh bends as possible and the largest hoses/piping possible (without going silly, e.g. 100mm :lol

Sorry if I've just written a load of what you already know - not intending to tread on anyones toes!

 

[moondustka]

Only real issue i might get is if i shifted too soon, i could get caught out. im not really a track driver anyway, although i do like to try and make my cars capable of track driving!

True I have been caught out in the beginning but you get used to it - just gotta remember to drop down and take 4th high/stay in 4th 'til the end.

As you said, you should be on full boost at that rpm for 5th anyway

 

[PumaNoob]

Dont be daft, anything anyone has to say that they think might help, is always welcome!! I have been proven wrong on many occasions, so if you school me on a few things, you wont be the 1st, and certainly not the last!! :lol:

Well have to agree to differ on the ppiping thing i suppose. On bends, perhaps theres a case for having a bigger pipe, because air will flow around a bigger diameter tube better then a smaller diameter tube of the same bend radius. But with regards to intercooler piping in general, i believe that if you have a 3" tube, and put a 2" restrictor in it, then the flow through both tubes will be identical, maybe even better in the smaller tube because the restrictor will cause turbulence. The only way a pipe is too small, is if gas physically cant get through it fast enough. If my turbo can maintain 19-20psi through my pipes, and its comming out cold on the outlet of the intercooler, then im happy with that.

Theres a guy on a focus forum with a duratec turbo, he owns a company that builds the kits, it might be fswerks or somerthing like that. He build a kit with 50mm tubing on a duratec turbo, and got either 400whp or 450whp. They must be able to flow a hell of a lot of air to get that. He tested it against some 57mm pipes and there were better results with the 2" piping.

So i stick with my theory, but as i said, your thoughts and comments are always welcome, youve been through the whole process already, so your bound to have a few pointers i can use!!

I do agree about keeping them as short as possible and the bigger the bend radius, the better the flow, thats what ive always been lead to believe when making my induction, intercooler, and exhausts!

Another quick question, what size exhaust piping are you using? Ive got 3" downpipe, and 2.5 mid section, but im a little worried about the 2.5" section, i might have to build a bigger one!

 

[warrenpenalver]

Youll know straight away from the rolling road mapping sessions if the 2.5" section is restrictive or not.

 

[moondustka]

I agree with you about your theory on the restrictor, however, the difference becomes when how long that restrictor is

So i then find it hard to believe the power with 50mm hoses from the focus. Having said that, the proof is in the pudding So I'm more than happy to be proved wrong. Could it also be that the kit has bigger bend radius' or larger hoses to compensate?

Exhaust is the same as yours then - I have a 3" down pipe and 2.5" exhaust with 2 silencers. Not restricting me yet

Hopefully I will be at the point of the re-map again in around 6 weeks, so will see what happens with my designed/created set up! It'l soon prove/disprove my theories :lol:

 

[PumaNoob]

Edited below

 

[PumaNoob]

Youll know straight away from the rolling road mapping sessions if the 2.5" section is restrictive or not.

Yeah, but then it would cost more dyno time once its been replaced for a bigger one :? If it does restrict, ill plumb my external wastegate in a different exhaust so ive got more flow!

I agree with you about your theory on the restrictor, however, the difference becomes when how long that restrictor is

But you said yourself, the pipe is only as good as its smallest point, so surely it wouldnt matter how long the restrictor is? The shape of entry and exit into and out of the restrictor would matter, weather its flat faced or funneled, but i dont think on our engines the length would matter. In the engine displacement world, a 2.0 is relatively small, so to get our power, weve chosen to basically increase volumetric efficiency rather then air flow. If it was a naturally aspirated engine, then the more flow the better on the inlet side, but on the inlet side of a turbo (between the compressor and tb), the gas is pressurised, so as long as that pipe can flow enough gas to fill the cylinders at 7000rpm, at a compressed rate, then its going to work. And the turbo outlet is only 45mm id and thats more then capable of supplying the required gas. The restriction is the intercooler and inlet valves. If a pipe is too small, then the boost would drop off at higher rpm, because it wouldnt be able to keep up with the gas flowing through the engine. If at 7000rpm you are maintaining 20psi, then its obvius that the restriction is the head, and not the intercooler pipes.

If on the other hand you were using a 3 or 4 litre engine, or a really high reving engine, then 50mm tubing would definitely restrict the flow, but then you wouldnt be using a single t25/28 style turbo on an engine that big with a 45mm outlet. It would spool instantly, but then die around 3000rpm.

I hear your argument about the heat created, and your right, fast flowing and/or compressed air will create additional heat, but that can be overcome with a better intercooler.

Exhaust is the same as yours then - I have a 3" down pipe and 2.5" exhaust with 2 silencers. Not restricting me yet

Again, sounds awefully familiar, i put 2 silencers in mine because i want my exhaust to be as quiet as possible without being restrictive!!

So i then find it hard to believe the power with 50mm hoses from the focus. Having said that, the proof is in the pudding So I'm more than happy to be proved wrong. Could it also be that the kit has bigger bend radius' or larger hoses to compensate?

Im not too sure about the bend radiuses, ive just had a search through the focaljet forum where i think i saw it, but cant seem to find it, maybe i just made it up in my head to make myself feel better about my 2" piping!! It may quite possibly have different bend radiuses or a bigger intercooler to compensate, i cant fined the post to get any details! It was the 2.3 version of the duratec i think, if that makes any difference at all!!