Puma Stalling And Not Idling?

[RoadWarrior]

Here it is on idle.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPbpG5mvOso[/youtube]

That's from before I suspected timing. Sounds like it has bent valves?

As soon as I touch the throttle, it goes back down to below idle tries to compensate, then just dies out.

Something to note: The thumping sound is in fact the exhaust, it isn't properly fitted just yet, and hits the bumper making a racket.

 

[RoadWarrior]

I'm going to turn the engine over with a breaker bar via the crankshaft pulley, if I feel any resistance I'm just going to bin the engine and get another off eBay and do the timing properly. It's all hassle though as I can't see how it jumped timing when I triple checked it, and followed the Gates walkthrough step by step. And I checked the flywheel when I come to think about the job. I marked where I locked the flywheel, and put two marks on the engine and flywheel, and had the bar in the cams and held them with a 20 or 21MM spanner when I undone the camshafts to replace the seals. I still had it all pinned when I put the old crankshaft pulley bolt back in, and did it up to the torque specs, and then turned it 90 degrees.

I even got new bolts for the pulley as Ford don't supply them with the timing kit. I've changed the camshaft sensor. I re-used the crankshaft pulley bolts on all the timing jobs I've done prior, and not a single one has had any problems, I did over 20,000 miles in the last one I did the timing on, and it never missed a beat.

 

[tuonokid]

Hi
That's because the crank and inlet cam bolts are stretch bolts to be used only once as they stretch as tightened up and actually put positive pressure on the pulleys stopping them from spinning on the shafts. Older engines have woodruff keys to locate and hold the pulleys in place.
Just as an example imagine if your car wheels were held on just by a single nut in the middle. What do you think would happen when you tried to accelerate or brake?
Ps if it's still running the valves may be ok but don't run it anymore until you fix it. If you can turn the engine over by hand and feel each compression stroke you may be ok.

 

[RoadWarrior]

A bit of luck, the valves aren't colliding with the pistons yet, I'll have to buy a new timing kit and the locking tool to lock the crank at TDC. Anyone got the Ford part number for it?

 

[RoadWarrior]

Just rang my local Ford dealer, and the person on the phone said they don't sell tools or have anything along them lines for a Puma. :roll:

 

[tuonokid]

According to TIS what you need is 205-072 15-030A and 303-511 (21-215) but I bought a taskmaster set and they're like hens teeth and expensive. The flywheel holding tool does the job just as well but you need the engine or gearbox out.

 

[tuonokid]

291120173567 by barry wilson, on Flickr

That's my kit.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Well, looks like I'm doing it all over again on another engine. There's a few from "Puma bits" on eBay. But I ain't buying one for a little while yet. The car has bent valves, so instead of chucking time and money at it to look at the pistons and figure out it's a scrapper, I'll just buy another engine and throw that in and do the timing properly.

Meh, you win some, you lose some. The original Puma crankshaft bolt was about an inch longer than the one in the timing set, so though it was from a different car or something, and it cost me a lot more ballache. :lol:

On the brightside, I just need a new crankshaft seal and I can take all the seals off the engine I already have.

It's about a £350 mistake.

 

[tuonokid]

Hi
It's strange that the new crank bolt was shorter than the old one, I bought a Gates kit for mine and the bolt was exactly the same apart from the original was 19mm and the Gates was 18mm spanner size. If you do the job again DON'T use the new crank bolt to draw the pulley back on.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Where did you get the Gates kit from? The internet?

 

[tuonokid]

My nephew in law works at a major parts supplier but the Gates kit are available from most motor factors, come with both stretch bolts and are top quality. I tend not to buy from the internet as most adverts say "fits...." and it doesn't. At least if you buy from a shop you can take the old part in with you to compare.

 

[RoadWarrior]

You reckon Parkers or EuroCarParts can order Gates stuff? Or even GSF?

 

[McBandy]

[post]368485[/post] It feels like a fuelling issue to be honest. It kind of lurches as you put the power down.

I've got no temp guage atm and the lead is completely out of the ecu as the pin broke upon relocation for the TAPE ECU :roll:

This sounds identical to how mine runs, off to read the rest of your thread now!

EDIT: Read, not good news, need to download Forscan and have a butchers but there’s a lot wrong with mine! Will be less costly for me as car was a ‘bargain’ but it’s still drivable!

 

[RoadWarrior]

If your Puma has aircon, you want to be very careful if your temp guage isn't working, as they're a complete nightmare for getting air locks, harder to bleed the system with aircon.

Turn it over by hand with a 19MM ratchet and be careful not to slip off, should turn over with the tool going clockwise with no jamming or stopping. If it jams, then your timing is out and it's hitting valves (like mine is.)

I could go down the route of changing valves, but you could spend all the time doing the stripping etc to see that the pistons have holes in from the valves hitting. I did 125 miles in mine with bad timing, so I know that the pistons are most probably shot now.

 

[McBandy]

Yeah temp gauge isn’t working nor is a/c, only blows hot! I’ll do the forscan thing and post for advice, it was cheap and came with a ****ton of parts so I should be able to break even at the very least, I do have engine bits if you need some?

 

[RoadWarrior]

I need a whole engine. :lol:

Want a low mileage one though, and will just buy a new timing kit, turn it over by hand make sure everything is OK prior to buying and then whip a new seal set that I have on my fubar'd engine and put it on the new one, all except the crankshaft seal on the timing side can be reused. :grin:

It only takes aboout three hours max to remove and put the other engine in. It's just the wiring getting moved out the way so it doesn't get snagged anywhere that's hassle. The subframe doesn't go underneath the engine on the Puma or Fiesta so the engines drop out easily from underneath, then lift the car up with the engine hoist pull engine #1 out and slide #2 underneath and lower the car and lift the other engine up. Easy with the right tools. You need very deep sockets to remove the gearbox mount, you want to drop the whole mount or you'll never get the gearbox side in. It's two bolts on the gearbox to drop the mount IIRC. :wink: I like to fit the engine in one day, then wire and plumb it the day after. It's less work load so stuff doesn't get rushed and broken. If you rush, you just end up doing it twice.

Also you have to be careful with the pin on the timing kit, the pin literally pops all the way out after that 2-3mm if you ain't careful you can pull the pin and need a new tensioner.

 

[tuonokid]

Just to save you some money if you take the tensioner off you can re-set it by putting the pin all the way back in you don't have to bin it. It's a bit of a struggle to push the tensioner wheel back but it's do-able.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Isn't there a chance of it failing if you push the pin back in?

So I can take the timing kit off the engine I have, push the pin back in and use it on another eninge :?:

 

[tuonokid]

Yup. If you have a look at the pin (from memory) there are two flats stamped into it where it goes into the tensioner. These are at slightly different angles to try and encourage you to remove in two steps. What happens when you remove the pin the first couple of mm is that the tensioner wheel tensions the belt but it also drags around with it the stop plate and positions that just far enough away from the tensioner for the tensioner to spring back to absorb shock but not far enough for the belt to jump teeth on the pulleys. If you remove the pin in one stage the stop doesn't go into position with the tensioner so under shock loads it can go too far back and allow the belt to go slack and jump teeth. This is also why tensioners eventually need replacing as the tensioner pulley spring goes weak allowing the wheel to constantly bang on the tensioner stop (the light metallic ting ting ting you can hear when it's ready for replacement) this knocks a groove in it allowing it to go further and further back until it goes too far and the belt to jump teeth.

 

[RoadWarrior]

I did the tensioner part of the cambelt properly. It was from rushing, and mistakes happened doing it half asleep. The tensioner was done word for word on the gates instructions, I just didn't change the crankshaft pulley bolt nor the camshaft E bolt. I reckon they're what's caused the belt to jump. It's definitely jumping, as I've turned it over by hand and feel resistance, it had none when I did it prior to installation.

I'd rather throw a complete new engine in than mess around doing the head. Seeing as its done 125miles on bad timing, I reckon the pistons will have damage.

I'd rather buy a new timing kit to be 100% that everything is good. I'll buy a GATES kit this time, as the Ford one has wrong crankshaft pulley bolt size etc.

There's an inch or two difference in size to the one removed from the engine to the one in the Ford timing kit.

It's actually a shame I messed the engine up. It was a genuine 70,000 miled engine without a single score on the camshafts. A pity, but these things happen. This has been a really bad week for me, nothing but bad luck. :lol: