FRP Duratec Turbo Project!

[jacko]

did you get the bolts for the alcons? have you sent the cable shifters yet?

 

[warrenpenalver]

be good to see some photos of where you bypassed the chips and stuff to see how you done the clocks. Much easier than doing it the complex way.

 

[PumaNoob]

did you get the bolts for the alcons? have you sent the cable shifters yet?

just got home mate, so i promise ill do it tomorrow, ill give you a bell just to make sure you still want it going to the same adress! Got the bolts, im really chuffed, i thought it would be just the 10 main bolts, but youve gone all out, rail bolts and everything, i owe you one mate!!

be good to see some photos of where you bypassed the chips and stuff to see how you done the clocks. Much easier than doing it the complex way.

i did the second effort a differen and easier way, when you said that using the copper bread board might be a neater & easier way of doing it, it got me thinking, why use copper board when you have the perfect board already, on the puma clocks with everything laid out for you!! So ive used the board from the mondeo clock and puma clocks. Ill get some pics up tomorrow if i get a chance, although it just looks like 2 boards and a mound of wires!!

 

[jacko]

cheers mate, same address please. yep, if im doing a job i think it should be done properly. make sure you put copper grease on the bolts.

 

[PumaNoob]

cheers mate, same address please. yep, if im doing a job i think it should be done properly. make sure you put copper grease on the bolts.

No worries, i always use copper grease anyway, im just waiting for 3m shims and ive got everything for the brakes. What do you think to these brakes then??

I dont think anybody in their right mind would argue that these are well past their best!! Ill take a look at them once ive fitted my new set, but i wont hold my breath that they will be any good! I dont think theyve been serviced once in the 11 years the car has been on the rd!!

This car has been neglected, i cant wait to get it to where its supposed to be!

 

[red]

They do look pretty neglected!

 

[jacko]

omg!!!!!!

reckon they're well and truly knackered! good call buying another set to refurb.

if you dont want them send them my way...just for sh!ts and giggles id love to see if i could get the old bolts out!!!!!
only if you dont want them tho cos the chances of them getting damaged or just being scrap are really high with that much corrosion.

 

[jacko]

what i cant stand about these calipers is the cult following they have with the old boy frp owners...they seem to think alcon are the god of brakes! er....well....no...not really when they dont even powder coat the calipers and the original paint 'wears' off after just a few years....seen so many that have been on their way to silver instead of being blue.

 

[PumaNoob]

Finally got round to getting it off!

I have to agree there, but I think its the same with a lot of FRP parts, when I took the brembos apart, all the screws except 1 came out easily, the alcons I've had to drill every one out! Granted they are a good caliuper when brand new, if they weren't the standard item, I'd be using a different caliper with outer seals, for a rd car, alcons are not a very sensible choice, I know a lot of people won't agree, but that's my opinion!

The girl who had my puma before me probarbly didn't know the brakes would need maintenance, and when they start causing problems, she couldn't afford to keep taking it to a garage to get sorted, so I think the 300mm set up off a mondeo might have been a better choice, virtually no maintenance, and a very good set up with the right discs & pads.

I'm sure that will aggrevate the die hard FRP fans, but sh*t happens!

 

[yippeekiay]

Have to agree with your conclusion as I wouldn't think I'd have to have a part specially maintained unless of course you were specifically told about it when purchasing the car. I'd generally feel that most cars and their parts should only require a similar amount of attention as each other apart from wear and tear items - if you know what I mean, calipers not being one of them items.

Can't help thinking Tickford got carried away with themselves and probably had a LOT more in mind for the car with other parts too (probably suspension, engine mods etc) but were stopped dead in their track as the costs were getting far too high as they were along with the vehicle becoming more and more 'specialist' with every extra thing they were doing to it.

Any further special enhancements would have probably seen them priced way to high to be economically viable or even to sell due to other cars available for the same money. I'm guessing their remit was cut short fairly soon after they started converting them when Ford saw they were maybe going to end up with another RS200...but 500, if they didn't cut the purse strings sooner...lol

 

[Neil]

Totally agreed Yip.

 

[PumaNoob]

I thought Yipee was going to say something controversial, never afraid to upset anyone!! But yeah mate, quite true!! :thumbs:

omg!!!!!!

reckon they're well and truly knackered! good call buying another set to refurb.

if you dont want them send them my way...just for sh!ts and giggles id love to see if i could get the old bolts out!!!!!
only if you dont want them tho cos the chances of them getting damaged or just being scrap are really high with that much corrosion.

Didnt see this post mate, but yeah, ill have a look at them, if i think they are beyond repair, they will be heading your way!!! Be prapared though, these might just be the worse youve ever seen!!! :lol:

 

[yippeekiay]

I thought Yipee was going to say something controversial, never afraid to upset anyone!! But yeah mate, quite true!! :thumbs:

hahaha...I did have a few left of field comments I was going to throw in to the mix to start a lively debate but it's the weekend so didn't want to ruin anyones....lol

 

[PumaNoob]

I thought Yipee was going to say something controversial, never afraid to upset anyone!! But yeah mate, quite true!! :thumbs:

hahaha...I did have a few left of field comments I was going to throw in to the mix to start a lively debate but it's the weekend so didn't want to ruin anyones....lol

Thats the yipee we all know and love!!!!! :lol:

 

[yippeekiay]

oh I doubt that very much...lol

 

[jacko]

cheers.....in a kind of perverse way....thats my attraction to your calipers!!! they are the worst pair i have seen by such a long way im kinda dieing to have a play!!!! reckon theyd spend the best part of a week in an oven and sink to heat cycle them / break rust on threads, then probably a month in the freezer.....id prob heat and quench all the bolt heads too

i have sorted a pair about half as bad and each bolt would take a few hours on a milling machine to set up, drill out and re-tap...!

do you want the gear stick / housing?

 

[PumaNoob]

cheers.....in a kind of perverse way....thats my attraction to your calipers!!! they are the worst pair i have seen by such a long way im kinda dieing to have a play!!!! reckon theyd spend the best part of a week in an oven and sink to heat cycle them / break rust on threads, then probably a month in the freezer.....id prob heat and quench all the bolt heads too

i have sorted a pair about half as bad and each bolt would take a few hours on a milling machine to set up, drill out and re-tap...!

do you want the gear stick / housing?

Im pretty handy getting corroded screws out, but i have far too much work on my engine to take care of to worry about them, so if they look shot, youll be receiving another parcel!! :lol:

I didnt get a chance to get that stick & housing off today, i took a leaf out of your book, and spent some time with the misses!! But it will be monday now, ill take them off tomorrow and get them shipped monday!

What do you guys think about turbo choice? I dont want much more then 300bhp, the ST150 gearbox wont take it, but it has to be quicker then my green puma. So the obvius choices to me are :
GT28R (AKA GT2860R)
GT28RS,
GT2871R,
Mitsubishi TD04HL 19t


Here are the compressor maps of the 3 Garrett turbos

And here is a compressor map for the mitsubishi turbo

And here is some info on the duratec flow rate, my head will have a mild port on it, but nothing major, but the flow wont be as good as that on the chart as the turbo will be restricting the flow a little, but just an idea if you know how to read the compressor maps.

Where it says MSS intake and exhaust are a fully ported head, and that engine is producing 260bhp N/A.

Its never going to be accurate because i cant calculate for the increased compression with the turbo, but just to get an idea, the OE exhaust flow is about 150cfm on that graph. so well within the efficiency range of all the turbos, and to get 260bhp, its flowing 300cfm intake, so ill take that as a rough figure, might be way off, but at a guestimate, 300cfm gets 260 N/A, then with a turbo blockage would push it down to say 210, but then with the increased cylinder efficiency thrown into the mix, id figure id be talking around the same sort of ball park flow for 300bhp. This is all guess work, so dont shoot me down if im way off! :lol:

So with that 300cfm as a guide, from the flow charts you can see its just starting to max out the GT28R, so i might give that a miss. The GT28RS is just within a good efficiency range, the GT2871R is well below its max efficiency range! But theres a twist with these 2 turbos! Look at this rolling rd dyno printout, 1 is the GT28RS, and 1 is the GT2871R.

They are on a totally different engine, but the comparison between the 2 would be relative on any engine. The GT28RS spools a lot quicker, and looks to have as much as 70ft/lbs more torque at some points before 4800rpm, & up to 60bhp more up to 4800rpm. Thats a massive difference, and for a road going car, youve probably already been beaten by the time youve gotten to 4800rpm. But the downside, is that the 28RS tails off at that point, and up to 7000rpm, has up to 50ft/lbs less & up to 70bhp less! That seems to be the trade of. I dont really have much info on the mitsubishi turbo yet, so ill leave that out for now, but it looks very similar to the 28RS.

I think ill go for the 28RS, id prefer to trade off top bhp figures for driveability and fun, and it might be easier on the engine and gearbox, as it wouldnt be such a kick when the boost kicked in, and i wouldnt have to rev the engine so high to get the power, id be better shifting at 6700/6800rpm, but just thought id get some views on what people thought, i know some have had experience with different turbos ect, so might be able to offer some useful advice!

 

[yippeekiay]

I don't understand much of the above, however I agree with your choice on the 28RS over the other. Much better have that extra low down torque than high rev power anyday

Means you have the power when it matters - early - and also means you can be shifting around 4500-5000 which will give a more relaxed driving experience when hoofing it as opposed to having to wait until the poor engine is screaming it's knackers off before shifting.

Other people might like that option but I know which I prefer

 

[PumaNoob]

Sorry for all the waffle above, I tried to explain it the best I can, but if turbos aren't your cup of tea it might not make a lot of sence to you! As you said though, it's basically a trade off with low down power and high rpm power, there is always a turbo that will give less lag, but you'd have to sacrifice power higher up. Then there's the bigger turbos, like GT30 series and GT35, capable of up to 800bhp, but you'd have lag until about 6k rpm, then the boost would kick in and blow my engine and gearbox to shreads!! :grin:

I don't think I'll be changing that early, if I did, when I shifted, I wouldn't be on full boost, could be wrong, but well see. Only issue with the RS is when your drag racing, you spend most of your time in those higher rpm's, so once you've finished 1st gear, you'd be between 5bhp and 50bhp worse off the higher up the revs you go. But I'm hoping with the slightly higher comp ratio I'll be using, 9:1, I can create more power with less flow, keeping the turbo in it's efficiency range for longer. That printout is only relevant if I take the turbo to max output, if I don't, then the RS is definitely the 1st choice. It keeps the "spirit" of the FRP, it's a fun drivers car, not a straight line muscle car.I don't think I'll be changing that early, if I did, when I shifted, I wouldn't be on full boost, could be wrong, but well see. Only issue with the RS is when your drag racing, you spend most of your time in those higher rpm's, so once you've finished 1st gear, you'd be between 5bhp and 50bhp worse off the higher up the revs you go. But I'm hoping with the slightly higher comp ratio I'll be using, 9:1, I can create more power with less flow, keeping the turbo in it's efficiency range for longer. That printout is only relevant if I take the turbo to max output, if I don't, then the RS is definitely the 1st choice. It keeps the "spirit" of the FRP, it's a fun drivers car, not a straight line muscle car.

 

[warrenpenalver]

unless your out for track crazyness where the top end power can be used, id go for lower down power and torque so you have lag free drivability.